Sence Of Speed

[nobody]

back to the track after a 7 months stop ( the heat here is unbearable for the bikes ), any way i got to the track with a bike that i have never ridden in or out of the track with a track that a new lay out, with tires that are new to me. i manged to get 1:29 and the best i did was 1:24 now that is a big difference.

the thing is the seance of speed is incredible it feels that i am going in the low 1:25 but i am far from that, right now i brake way to late ( a bike length than before thanks to the new brakes ) and i can brake even later ( later than any one on the track ) and still have room for braking later, but i find it very difficult directing the bike to the place i want to go, it goes wide so i add more throttle to if possible let the rear tire slide a bit to direct me better but with no good results.

i use the 2 step drill but still no cigar.

[Jaybird180]

Have you considered that you are trying too hard; doing too much at once?

[nobody]

maybe but i do not think that i am trying too hard, i see every thing comming at me at high speed like i am looking down not at where i want to go.

[RonniB]

just trying to help (in a bit of CSS style).

 

What makes you preceive speed best, going very fast over a long straight, or braking hard from high speed??

 

In my expirience, late braking often give me a feeling of high speed, even if I am low on entry speed. But I read what you saying as you have much better brakes and therefore have startet to chase the late braking marker, and have lost the ability to clip your apex.

 

Try going on the brakes on your old brakingsmarkers, and find a brake off marker (RP) where you know that you can make the corner at the correct line, then adjust your brake on marker to shorten your brakingzone if needed. If you can't reach your apex, you gone to far..

 

Ronni

[nobody]

thank you RonniB, but i am hitting the apexes with no problem, try to look at it like this: if i am braking later and still hitting the apex and every thing looks fast then i must be going fast.

[faffi]

My cousin race cars for fun. And does track days en masse. He recently bought a Porche Carrera for track driving only. When he talked with some semi-famous local racer in Germany while blasting around Nurburgring, they got to talk about braking points among other things. And when my cousin told where he braked for several corners (very late), still having no trouble hitting the apex, the racer looked at him and said he'd better move back his braking points by a lot if he ever wanted to become fast. Braking late doesn't have to equal fast, in other words.

[nobody]

if i was braking too late then having to turn very tight than that is correct but i have lots of room and distance to turn and i use the marks that the CSS left on the track.

[Progression]

I'm presuming from your last post you did L1 of CSS with turn points marked on the track?

[troy0907]

I am no cornering expert but i agree with others. brake late doesnt mean you can go faster. I reckon the G force is higher due to the compression of braking make you feel fast. You ran wide probably because you were charging the turn or not turning quick enough. I think you will be better of by move back your brake marker a bit and focusing on entry speed more. I believe smooth and momentum is the key to better laptime. Just my 2cents.

 

 

[nobody]

thanks guys, i did level 1 ( great experience ).

i am turning at the right place ( the same place that i get in the 1:24's ) with no problem and i hit the apex the problem is the exit and the sense of speed that i am approaching the turn in.

 

i know that i have lots of other mistakes but these are that things that i can find at the moment.

[Progression]

I've done L1 and L2 but by no means am an expert....

But one of the in class seminars at my L2 covered this point which might help. The L1 crosses you used as turn points are an average which will allow a large amount of riders at slightly different speeds to turn in and use good throttle control and practice the other L1 drills. They are (I think I am right in saying) not a point which will work for all riders at all speeds as there are a lot of other factors, namely how quickly and how much you turn the bike, your entry speed and your apex. When/If you do L2 you will get to experiment with turn points and this really makes what I am saying sink in

[ozfireblade]

thanks guys, i did level 1 ( great experience ).

i am turning at the right place ( the same place that i get in the 1:24's ) with no problem and i hit the apex the problem is the exit and the sense of speed that i am approaching the turn in.

 

i know that i have lots of other mistakes but these are that things that i can find at the moment.

 

 

Hi mate, I think maybe for your exit look further ahead increasing your wide view and not locking the near visuals ie to the ground. I think that maybe your not doing the three step properly as this all seems to be a visual problem.

[Fajita Dave]

thanks guys, i did level 1 ( great experience ).

i am turning at the right place ( the same place that i get in the 1:24's ) with no problem and i hit the apex the problem is the exit and the sense of speed that i am approaching the turn in.

 

i know that i have lots of other mistakes but these are that things that i can find at the moment.

 

 

Where exactly is your apex anyway? Is it halfway through the corner, early, or late?

 

If try to brake later I usually start turning in slightly sooner and this makes my apex sooner. It feels like I'm entering the corner faster but it forces me to run wide on exit which is much slower overall.

 

 

[acebobby]

My cousin race cars for fun. And does track days en masse. He recently bought a Porche Carrera for track driving only. When he talked with some semi-famous local racer in Germany while blasting around Nurburgring, they got to talk about braking points among other things. And when my cousin told where he braked for several corners (very late), still having no trouble hitting the apex, the racer looked at him and said he'd better move back his braking points by a lot if he ever wanted to become fast. Braking late doesn't have to equal fast, in other words.

 

LOL Eirik, I am guessing you have never been in the BMW M5 ringtaxi with Sabine or any of the other ex race drivers that drive them, I had a lesson in late braking that had my heart in my mouth, though that was in a car so not alot to compare with bikes!

 

As for the problems the OP is experiencing, I would say visual issues, every time I feel like I m going to fast I remember my L3 coach Butch signalling for me to get my head up!

 

Bobby

[faffi]

We went to a track outside London and got to drive a Porsche Carrera Turbo, a Ferrari 355, a Subaru WRX and a Lotus Elise. We then got a chance to passenger with race drivers behind the wheels in the Subaru and the Lotus, and although they braked hard and late, they still had all the braking done before turning in. Both my cousin and I are typically braking to the apex or even beyond, which apparently isn't ideal.

[Fajita Dave]

Both my cousin and I are typically braking to the apex or even beyond, which apparently isn't ideal.

 

While trying to go as fast as possible would it be more ideal to be accelerating or braking?

 

On the street I've been practicing the 2-step a lot. Its been getting me to let off the brakes sooner, turn in later and look further ahead. I've been carrying more speed into corners without even realizing it but it feels like I'm going much slower than before. Your riding based on what you see, if your visual skills are better than your riding will probably get better to.

[acebobby]

Both my cousin and I are typically braking to the apex or even beyond, which apparently isn't ideal.

 

It is for people that drive like this that ABS had to be invented!

[nobody]

ok guys, to keep you updated. i managed to drop my time to 1:26 and i still see where i have my major problems.

when i am going from right to left then right i stop turning the throttle and it seems that i am idling to the turn and some times i even touch the brakes, i do not know why i do that but it is like my brain is doing it by force.

i know for shore that the tires have more grip in them than i can Handel but still my mind is playing games on me.

[khp]

ok guys, to keep you updated. i managed to drop my time to 1:26 and i still see where i have my major problems.

when i am going from right to left then right i stop turning the throttle and it seems that i am idling to the turn and some times i even touch the brakes, i do not know why i do that but it is like my brain is doing it by force.

i know for shore that the tires have more grip in them than i can Handel but still my mind is playing games on me.

Where is your vision, when this happens?

 

I had a similar problem this summer, and my Level 4 coach + liaisons traced it back to the fact that I wasn't turning my head in time to look in for the apex before hitting the turn point. Once I started turning my head and looking better into the turn, I was able to crack the throttle open right after the steering input.

 

Regards,

 

 

Kai

[nobody]

Kai, if i remember correctly my vision was stuck to the turning point and 2-3 meters before i get to it i look to where i want to turn.

[dmj120]

Kai, if i remember correctly my vision was stuck to the turning point and 2-3 meters before i get to it i look to where i want to turn.

 

Me too!! Especially on the slow, tight stuff; even on surface streets. Been trying to concentrate on moving my eyes, but it's tough. I, one trick, might be to "sense" where to turn; meaning, using peripheral vision, timing and/or a mental picture. This is precisely why I can hardly wait to get to level 2 - I've been told it's all about vision.

[khp]

Kai, if i remember correctly my vision was stuck to the turning point and 2-3 meters before i get to it i look to where i want to turn.

Me too!! Especially on the slow, tight stuff; even on surface streets. Been trying to concentrate on moving my eyes, but it's tough. I, one trick, might be to "sense" where to turn; meaning, using peripheral vision, timing and/or a mental picture. This is precisely why I can hardly wait to get to level 2 - I've been told it's all about vision.

Level 2 is indeed "all about vision". Andy put it this way in the morning "smooth flow of information in through the eyes, resulting in smooth flow of control", if I remember correctly.

 

There were two things that made a major difference to my riding: First, that I started to actually turn my head so I looked squarely at the apex or next R.P., instead of just moving my eyes so I looked at the R.P. from the corner of my eye. Secondly, that I turned my head (and thereby also my eye-target) as soon as I was sure I would hit & turn on the turn-point. That way, my focus was "unstuck" from the turn-point and I was able to roll the throttle on.

 

I cannot say for sure if this would help you, but you might give it a try and see if it changes anything for you.

 

 

Kai