Jump to content
Cobie Fair

Throttle And Lean Angle, At The Same Time.

Recommended Posts

We have been looking at the 2 of these being done at the same time, and what it produces.

 

How many of you have rolled the throttle on (or seen another) TOO SOON?

 

What is too soon, and what does it cause?

 

CF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll admit it...

 

I have done it a couple of times resulting in the rear end stepping out, 1 low side because I had no idea it was happening until too late (1st major slide at substantial lean angle and chasing a much faster guy). Second time much better result because I was able to identify the problem earlier.

 

For me, too soon is adding throttle before reaching max lean angle. How does that throttle control rule go again???

 

My biggest cause, wiping off to much speed on entry (i.e. charging) and then trying to rectify the problem with another mistake :angry:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It depends on your definition of too soon, I believe. I have most of my 30+ years of riding been the type that rather charges the turns than being early on the throttle, a habit I have just begun to come to grips with over the past few years. So for me, applying the throttle too early has meant either before I start lifting the bike, i.e. at max lean, or before the turn has opened enough, but not during turn-in.

 

I have a couple of times way back, just to look for the limits, whacked on the throttle while scraping pegs and stuff. Note that this was with older bikes with limited lean angle compared to what is common today, so probably less than 40 degrees of lean. These silly antics were met with a rear stepping out, predictably enough, followed by me chopping the throttle and saving the day by shear luck alone.

 

Accelerating too hard too early with sufficient grip, OTOH, have simply made the bike run wide. How wide depends massively upon the bike in question; how much power it has and how it steers. The Triumph Daytona 900 from the 90s is very eager to run wide, whereas my XT600 hardly bothers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, it was probably a case of too much too soon.

 

I was near about the maximum lean angle when I suddenly and strangely felt I was well.. too slow.

 

What followed next was a very fast roll on (which was smooth but fast - uhh, now I'm confused), the rear slid, gripped again and I highsided (broke my collarbone)

 

Rgds,

Vaibhav

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the throttle is rolled on before the rider reaches max lean angle, where will the bike go, what line will it take?

 

CF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The bike runs wider than intended, causing the rider to miss their intended apex, provided they keep it up it in the process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

May I just say that Throttle Control Rule #1 is NOT: "Never add lean angle and throttle at the same time." TCR#1 is: "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on smoothly, and constantly through the remainder of the turn." Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the problems from Too Early are not necessarily as bad as the problems with Too MUCH!

 


  1.  
  2. If I roll off, lean over, roll on--all I've done is make the bike handle by getting the weight onto the back tire.
  3. If I roll off, lean over, roll on too hard--then the bike may want to stand up, run wide or slide the rear tire.

 

Even if I wait until the bike is fully turned and pointed where I want it to go Before I roll on the throttle, I can still get in trouble from rolling on too MUCH power. Also, some turns (curves more than corners) are taken flat out. No roll off. Rolling on Too Early simply does not apply. But I can still get in trouble if I enter the curve too fast--with Too MUCH speed.

 

So, the way I think about it is that Too Early means:

 


  1.  
  2. At the wrong speed for the turn,
  3. While the bike is in the process of leaning over, or
  4. Before the bike is FULLY turned.

 

Wrong speed is less than ideal and means either I'm going too slow, trying to catch up and apt to add too much power and overwhelm the rear tire; or I'm going too fast and will try to add more power anyway, because I'm "supposed to," and get scared, slam the throttle closed and get the whole bike out of shape.

 

Adding throttle while the bike is moving down and in the process of leaning over is just tricky. Even if I only add a little throttle, and I am nowhere near sliding, it's hard to be smooth. When I try this, the throttle almost always get slapped open upsetting the bike and giving me at least a little scare. Also, since I'm trying to do two things at once (control my decent down to my desired lean angle, and roll on the throttle), my attention tends to come back to the bike, or even inside my body. I stop seeing well and so, do not do a good job setting my lean angle or speed. To me, this loss of visual focus is the biggest problem with getting on the gas Too Early.

 

Tons of racers open the throttle after the bike's lean angle has been set, but before the apex, where they will add more lean angle. As far as I can tell, this has become the standard technique. Almost every pro road racer I see is either on the brakes all the way to the apex, or they lean in, rolled on, then pause the roll on for a second as they dip down to the apex. Trail braking and pausing the roll on both take a good deal of finesse, but don't automatically mean the rider is going to crash. Since these guys are racing, they may not even be breaking TCR#1 since they did get on the gas as soon as they could, under the circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things to consider on this:

 

If the bike runs wide with the throttle being rolled on before full lean is achieved, as was stated, could run wide. Or, do many just simply lean the bike over more? If that is the case, does this simply mean that unneeded lean angle is used (that never should have been there) due only to the fact of too early roll on?

 

Regarding top riders pausing on the throttle after they start the roll on, I'd suggest listening to some of the top riders, let us know what you hear.

 

Another point, does the bike stand up under roll on, or does it run wide? Not the same thing.

 

CF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good suggestion, Cobie.

 

I've been trying to listen to the top riders and how they use the throttle in the corners. Of course, the first thing is that listening for useful information during TV coverage of AMA Superbike, Sportbike or MotoGP TV is tough. They switch shots constantly and the sound never seems to match up well with one certain rider or even a small group of riders. Still, from what I can tell about throttle control As A Group is that most of the riders roll off down to the apex, then roll on. I couldn't really hear any of the riders lean in and roll on before the apex. I did sometimes hear the throttle pause in chicanes or complicated turns.

 

So, what does that mean? I have crappy listening skills? Maintenance throttle is hard to hear? The way you ride for fastest lap time is different from the way you ride to stay in front of another rider? "As soon as possible" can mean after the apex?

 

I'm not used to listening for this sort of thing, so I think I may be missing a lot of information that you would hear. Still, to my untrained ear, it didn't sound like any of these guys was getting on the throttle too early. To me, it sounded like maybe they were too late. At the same time, the lean angles were so extreme that I don't know if Anybody could give the bikes much throttle before the apex.

 

What do you hear?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Since you brought it up; for me, the most fascinating view of a MotoGP racer and his machine is the throttle hand and brake lever filmed from the front backwards. What you see is that they are either braking or accelerating. These blokes never seem to coast, they are either slowing or accelerating. Maintaining cornering speed simply doesn't seem to happen.

 

Lately, I have tried to implement this more and more into my street riding. As my recent video show, I still have some way to go until I master it :unsure:

 

 

:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Crash:

 

A couple of things that one can pay attention to, and the first one is this: when the throttle comes back on, what does it sound like? To me it sounds textbook...once it is cracked on, continues smoothely, evenly,...etc. Sometimes you here it spin or the traction control kick in, but it still sounds pretty darn textbook.

 

The other thing, about WHEN does it come on: this certainly varies per turn, and the different types of turns: in a long, late apex, decreasing radius turn, off course the throttle can't come on early! In fact, one might have to trail the brakes through much of the turn. Or a faster turn leading into a slower turn, similar issue, can't roll on early, too fast at the exit. Those are 2 that would make one wonder about early throttle roll on.

 

There is another factor here: the entry speed possible with those bikes and tires. Current technology has made some pretty amazing things possible compared to 20 years ago (or even less) in terms of entry speed. Modern GP tires run what, 12 psi in the rear! Lean to 55-60 degrees? Those guys could be getting back on the throttle as easly as possible, but entry speeds are fantastic. And if one guy messes it up, and goes in too fast, 4 guys go past him.

 

Have a look from this perspective, see what you notice.

 

CF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I really like on MotoGP coverage is when they show one of the bike-mounted camera views and superimpose a graphic showing how much throttle or brake the rider is using. Assuming they show enough of a given riders camera view, you can see in a given corner from start to finish where they come off the gas, come on the brakes, go off the brakes, and get on the gas. I try to watch those scenes very carefully because I am fascinated at what they are doing. My sense is they brake very deep in the turn and get a quick, smooth roll-on of the gas as soon as they are off the brakes. Once they are on the gas they are bringing the bike quickly upright and they are pinning the throttle. I have a few recorded races to watch this weekend and I'll look again for things I may have missed or othewise not considered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thinking about another thread on GP riding and squaring off corners, how much can we take from watching the GP guys in this respect? They're riding bikes more powerful than we ever will (plus a bucketload of onboard electronics), and they're aiming for the fastest lap times by getting back on the power at the earliest possible point rather than the highest corner speed. The end product is a fast lap time, but is this the same product you could use on, say, a 600? I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, or maybe I'm just being dim!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chances are that they, more or less, follow the same principles learned on Code's schools, only taken to the extremes. First of all, even though things happen very quickly, they need to be very smooth. I just read how Capirossi and Doviziozo had seen the telemetry from Stoner, and both commented how smooth and accurate his throttle control is and how little electronics he use. Since most humans doesn't even come close to the level of skill represented by the slowest backmarker in MotoGP, it makes sense for us to give room for abrupt controls and lack of finesse near the limit. So instead of trailing off the brakes to maximum lean and instantly hitting the throttle, we are thaught to focus on one task at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thinking about another thread on GP riding and squaring off corners, how much can we take from watching the GP guys in this respect? They're riding bikes more powerful than we ever will (plus a bucketload of onboard electronics), and they're aiming for the fastest lap times by getting back on the power at the earliest possible point rather than the highest corner speed. The end product is a fast lap time, but is this the same product you could use on, say, a 600? I don't know if I'm explaining it very well, or maybe I'm just being dim!

I understand your comments and I think it is very fair to consider the pros are operating at a level most of us can barely imagine let alone execute. However, it seems to me that with regard to brake/throttle/lean, it is merely different perspective on the same application. All things considered, I think we all want to get slowed down, turned, and back on the gas as quickly as the situation permits - how we each execute that process is merely a function of personal skill level. Or maybe I'm not explaining my thoughts well either :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

During the initial turn, what a lot of riders don't realize is that going from straight up to full lean lightens the bike. It's not a gigantic difference, but you're basically putting the bike into a fall. It's an inconsistent in the equation. It's also another reason newer riders don't suffer the wrath of improper riding technique as much as a more experienced rider.

 

I could learn the throttle limits of a bike while turning pretty easily, if lean angle and amount of throttle application were the only things to factor, but there is the de-weighting of the bike, if you will, elevation change of the track (adding to or taking from the weighting or unweighting of the bike), road surface. That adds a lot more making the rule of "don't apply throttle and lean at the same time" even more relevant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I really like on MotoGP coverage is when they show one of the bike-mounted camera views and superimpose a graphic showing how much throttle or brake the rider is using.

 

If you still have Assen have a look at Crutchlow. The difference is day and night between him and Rossi. There is even a moment where Cal coasts for a real short moment. Where-as most riders vary only slightly, there is a huge disparity between these two. Watching that will explain why you're on Cal's bike watching Rossi from behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*hands up!

 

 

 

 

was doing the TOTW excercises and too much throttle too soon (my lean speed was real crappy then ,SLOW> 1-10 <FAST, I'm 3 then)

 

-went wide

 

-straightened up

 

rolled slowly off and re-leaned in. unforgetable experience (I screwed up the 75% rule)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the lean speed improvement helps lots to help the bike get planted for the smooth throttle roll on. (around at least 6 now )

 

My bikes set up for some rough terrain so you can feel the suspension get squished/firmed up abit and the G sensation kicks in for me.

 

the G sensation is quite easy to recognize for me, I personally use it to set off the roll on action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you still have Assen have a look at Crutchlow. The difference is day and night between him and Rossi. There is even a moment where Cal coasts for a real short moment. Where-as most riders vary only slightly, there is a huge disparity between these two. Watching that will explain why you're on Cal's bike watching Rossi from behind.

 

Cal qualified miles ahead of Rossi and was faster until his front tyre wore out, eventually to the point where he had to pit and fit a new. Do you think the worn tyre would have been affecting his style?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very long time away from the forum, but just back to try to catch up. Interesting topic as I know I have been guilty of this before. 2 weeks ago I had a crash during race practice that I feel was a result of doing just this. Check out the video below and let me know if you all agree. I did stand up the bike to avoid another rider and then to me it seems I added a turn input, while at the same time or almost immediately adding throttle. Some of the contributing factors could have been the change in surface on the track, (patch laid a few years ago, significant difference from rest of track) plus I was using an older used rear DOT race tire with a front slick as opposed to the rear slicks I've been on for a while. Note my lap time on the lap leading up to the crash was 3 seconds off my best time, and I was just starting to get up to speed. When the Ducati comes out of the pits to the left, I decide I'd like to follow and learn his line, he is the rider I'm trying to avoid hitting late in the lap.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it's worth, if you look at the horizon for a reference; you avoid the rider, tip in a little far, bring it back up, and then add the gas and walk the back end out.

 

Once the back end starts to slide, the camera points in towards the inside of the turn, and you hear the throttle chop. After the chop, the camera angle abruptly changes as you get chucked off of the bike.

 

I'm sure it's no surprise but while the cause of the initial slide is undetermined, the actual crash was caused by the throttle chop.

 

Hope you came out of it OK.

-Sean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a video of adding throttle and lean angle at the same time...

 

 

No need to watch the whole thing, just the first 20 seconds (in fact I recommend not watching after the 20 second mark, if you watch past you will see why). Also has some bad language so dont watch if easily offended.

 

Observations/Comments????

 

 

 

PS: No this is not me or anyone I would care to ride or associate with, just a clip I picked up off another forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"squid" is the term we use :)

 

CF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...