How Much Power Is Enough To Keep Traction In Control?

[bloodrun]

I've been riding on mine cbr 600rr for the last few months. For Honda, most of the power is located at it's mid range.

Always in the corner, i've got a feeling that i could open the throttle more as the rpm pulls closer to maximum torque. But while riding on the expressway, recalling back at maximum torque, the pull is always strong. just wondering if anyone out there has max out their power while lean over in huge sweeping corners?

[mugget]

If I'm reading the question right... you're wondering if anyone has turned the throttle to the stop in a big sweeping corner?

 

Think about it this way - what are some signs that you could not add any more throttle in a given corner? The bike will give you signs, for example the tyres moving//squirming around/slipping, it may start to feel unstable, etc. If your bike isn't showing any of those signs that indicate it's close to exceeding the maximum grip level, then you could use some more throttle. The thing to do is just keep gradually adding more throttle and feel for traction and watch out for any of those warning signs that show you're approaching the limit.

 

From my memory of riding a 600, there was definitely a point in the corner when you could pin the throttle and the tyre would just hook up and launch the bike out of the corner. But that was not what I would have said was 'leaned over', that was more on corner exit when the bike is already coming upright (for me it was probably somewhere after the bike is back to 65-70 degrees lean or more).

 

Hope that helps? Or let me know if I mis-understood.

 

Cheers

[bloodrun]

Hi mugger, you got me. Going through level only of the school. It taught us to gradually increase the throttle roll on as we approach the corner. Currently, I'm pushing mine entry speed along with higher rpm so as to utilize the maximum torque to push the bike out of the corner faster, but mine only conerns is that everytime I do that, Mine rev meter would be at 10,000 rpm. With maximum torque at 13,000rpm I would left 2,000rpm roll on to hit maximum torque. If the comers are short, it would not be a problem, but If the corners are long sweeps.

 

Would that means that we need to hold the throttle instead of rolling on in long, fast corners?

 

With that said, I've also experience wheel lock incident where blipping is not enough as I push the rpm higher into the corner.

 

Do advice sincerely.

[mugget]

Okay, I think I see what you're saying. It seems like this has more to do with gear selection as you're approaching the corner. Remember that you don't want to come into a corner with the RPM too high, the RPM will increase even further if you keep the same speed and just lean the bike in (due to the different radius on the edge of the tyre compared to the centre).

 

You definitely don't want to run out of RPM, maybe it's better not to change down so many gears. So if you're currently changing down two gears on approach to the corner, just try changing down one gear. But having said that, depending on the track and your bikes gearing maybe you'll find that you do have to short-shift somewhere or shift up while you're still partially leant over.

 

But I haven't actually done any of the schools, so hopefully a coach will be along shortly to help with your question...

[Dark Suzuki]

Theres a corner here at my local track where your pinned in 6th and its a long sweeping Right hander (est 280kph).

 

 

Turn 5, you go from a 1st gear hairpin to a 6th gear sweeper.

[faffi]

It is said to be safer to slide the rear on trailing torque, as in you should begin acceleration around maximum torque. I would imagine the 600RR have max power at 13000 and max torque around 10000, but I could well be mistaken here - engines seems to rev through the moon these days. But if you are a novice, using a higher gear with less power and less rpm is probably easier until you begin sliding at will.

[bloodrun]

Actually the 10000rpm is where the power kicks in, it rev till 13,000rpm to red line at 15,000rpm. The power band for honda is that the top rev are always flat out leaving all the power at mid range.

 

But Eirik, would agree with you that torque slides are much more controllable. But the fact is mine intent is to keep the bike stable with a smooth acceleration at the shortest time possible to max torque so as to get out of the corners faster.

 

It just puzzle mine mind what happens if the hairpins are long? from what i understand here is that, down shift to a lower gear, than control the roll on all the way till i run out of rpm. What happens if the corners are even longer and wider? means that i have to go even slower on mine roll on to achieve that?

 

please alighten me guys

[faffi]

If you look at top rank racers, they will more often than not use the lowest gear possible and control the power with the throttle. This also mean that they from time to time must upshift while leaned over, which is why most - but far from all - world class riders prefer a revers shift pattern; they do not have to find room for their toes under the lever.

 

The challenge for lesser mortals is that you can easily highside from applying too much throttle if you have a surplous of power at your disposal. It takes brain power to modify the throttle perfectly, brain power that could be well spent elsewhere, perhaps. Or put it differently; the less you need to focus on throttle application, the more you can focus on your line and where to get on the throttle etc.

 

Let's say you can sit at 10000 rpm in 1st gear just as you start earnest acceleration in proximity of the apex while leaned almost full over. If you whack open the throttle, you are likely to highside. The fear of highsiding may make you use less throttle than the tyre can take. Now, if you sat at 7000 rpm in 3rd gear instead, there may not be enough power to cause you any problems, allowing you to get on the throttle harder sooner. This may not feel as fast or exciting, but may be a faster way around your race track. You need to experiment to find out what works for you.

 

 

[Hotfoot]

Actually the 10000rpm is where the power kicks in, it rev till 13,000rpm to red line at 15,000rpm. The power band for honda is that the top rev are always flat out leaving all the power at mid range.

 

But Eirik, would agree with you that torque slides are much more controllable. But the fact is mine intent is to keep the bike stable with a smooth acceleration at the shortest time possible to max torque so as to get out of the corners faster.

 

It just puzzle mine mind what happens if the hairpins are long? from what i understand here is that, down shift to a lower gear, than control the roll on all the way till i run out of rpm. What happens if the corners are even longer and wider? means that i have to go even slower on mine roll on to achieve that?

 

please alighten me guys

 

Sometimes in a really long corner you do have to upshift in the corner, especially with a low horsepower bike on a big track, or on a bike with a very narrow power band. As Eirik said, that becomes much easier with a reverse (GP) shift pattern, since you can just step down on the lever instead of trying to hook your foot under it while leaned over, and easier yet with a good power-shifter. It can be challenging at first to learn to upshift smoothly (for sure doing it without using the clutch helps) so as not to upset the bike or lose too much of your drive. I would not normally modulate my throttle control to avoid hitting the limiter, I'd just SHIFT when I approached the limiter. In a turn long enough and open enough to require that, it shouldn't be a problem to shift.

 

Regarding which gear to enter in - depending on your skill level you might find it easier to enter the turn one gear higher; here are some pros and cons that come to mind - for clarity let's say you are choosing between entering in 3rd gear at 10,000 rpm or 4th gear at 6,000 rpm (not sure if that is a realistic example for your machine, but hopefully it will get the point across).

 

Entering in 3rd at 10,000 rpm:

Pros:

more power on initial roll-on

more engine braking entering the turn, might give you better control of your entry speed

Cons:

downshifting to 3rd before the turn at this high rpm can be tougher - easier to spin the back tire if you do a rough downshift or don't blip it enough

initial throttle roll-on may be abrupt or jerky since you are right in the power band

potential for hitting the rev limiter during the turn can be distracting, you may spend attention on this that would be better used on monitoring your traction

necessity to limit roll-on to avoid hitting the rev limiter, OR be prepared to upshift in the corner, which can also consume some of your attention

as you increase your entry speed in the corner through the course of the day or session, you will hit the rev limiter sooner in the corner, which can surprise and distract you

 

Entering in 4th:

Pros:

May be able to avoid having to downshift before the turn , so more attention can be spent on entry speed. OR at least you can downshift at a lower rpm, which is easier to do.

Initial roll-on should be gentler and easier to manage, so you can roll on more aggressively and smoothly without having to concentrate on it as much.

Can probably get into the power band before the exit of the corner, which is where you need the hardest drive anyway.

Plenty of room to drive without worrying about hitting the limiter, so you can focus on traction.

 

So, using the lower gear presents some skill challenges for a smooth downshift, smooth initial roll-on, and possible necessity of upshifting in the corner, which COULD negate the advantage of the extra power; entering in the higher gear may mean that you have less power at initial roll-on, BUT if it allows you to use a higher entry speed (no downshift/less distraction) and allows you to start your roll-on more aggressively and with more confidence and more attention spent on available traction, you might ultimately have a better overall corner speed. And if you can roll on enough in early and mid-corner, you may be solidly in the power band by the end of the corner and have plenty of drive out.

 

Usually when I am faced with this decision I choose the higher gear and try to increase my entry speed a little bit, and make sure I have a good early and mid-corner roll-on to get me up into the power band by the middle or end of the corner.

 

If a slower rider forces me to lower my entry speed, I'd drop to the lower gear to get by them, and hope that the lower entry speed keeps me off the limiter, or else I'll get in front of the other rider then upshift when necessary.

 

One other point - in a corner where you KNOW you are going to have to upshift while leaned over, sometimes it is easier to short-shift (shift a bit early) so that you don't shift right at the maximum power band; it can help keep the back tire from getting squirrely as you change gears.

[bloodrun]

Thank you hot foot, got what you mean already. Actually just to ask another question out of this topic. Apart from the school which teaches lines, roll on...etc how do you improve and go faster?

 

I've advice from people who ask me to increase mine entry speed. But everytime I do that it seems to be out of control.

 

Could you advice on this as well?

[Hotfoot]

Thank you hot foot, got what you mean already. Actually just to ask another question out of this topic. Apart from the school which teaches lines, roll on...etc how do you improve and go faster?

 

I've advice from people who ask me to increase mine entry speed. But everytime I do that it seems to be out of control.

 

Could you advice on this as well?

 

Well, that is a very broad question!

 

I know you said "apart from the school..." but honestly, when I want to improve and go faster, I go to the school, because nothing compares to professional one-on-one coaching where your coach can SEE what you are doing, help you determine what your personal barriers are, and help come up with solutions to overcome them. SO, the surest and quickest way to improve is to come to the Superbike School, you will make tons of progress in one day.

 

If that is not possible, my next suggestion would be to read Twist of the Wrist II and/or watch the Twist II DVD. That is the source for real tools and technology of riding, where you will find solid techniques that will give you more control over your bike, ways to improve your visual skills, and better understanding of the survival instinct barriers rider face and how to overcome them.

 

It would be very difficult in this forum to give you general advice on how "improve and go faster", becuase it can be tough to discover what specific barriers you are encountering. For example, you say someone has told you to increase your entry speed. Well... you are choosing your current entry speed for a reason; either there is something about the control of the bike that makes you feel that is the max safe speed (certainty of line? ability to get the bike turned? available traction?) OR there is something wrong with the info you are getting (are you getting good visual info, or are you target fixed, or jerky with your eye movements?) OR you may have a bad piece of information that you are using in your decision-making (for example, thinking that turning the bike more quickly would make the front end slide). Personal coaching at a school would help you sort that out very quickly. Reading Twist II would give you a lot of tools to overcome the barrier - for example, learning about "Quick Turn" can often make a big difference in entry speed.

 

All that being said - if your goal is an overall improvement in laptimes, what do you think is more important, increasing your entry speed or increasing your EXIT speed?

 

If you do feel that entry speed is the most important thing to work on (and maybe it is, for you, at this moment), let's address that - in what way does the bike feel "out of control" when you enter faster? Does it go wide, are you concerned about traction, or lean angle, or something else...?

[Cobie Fair]

Blood,

 

Just an overall statement of increasing your entry speed, that is pretty broad, and a number of things will change when you do that.

 

As an overall concept, if you increase your knowledge, then your control will also increase. Hotfoot and I are pretty biased about the school and Keith's books and DVD's. We've both used them as students to very good success, enough that we ended up being slaves at the school!

 

Take some ownership and responsibility for your education (however you can do that ), bring the knowledge up, and the control will come up too!

 

I actually think it's one reason this forum gets viewed: for sure we don't have the most action and drama--I just visited another forum and in 5 minutes I was laughing out loud at the silly stuff going on there, but it was entertaining, like a good soap opera maybe. But we work to keep the data and info in line with proven, workable, real information. Fortuhnately, we have access to an amazing researcher in Keith, and we don't mind bragging about that either!

 

Best,

Cobie