Hanging Off The Bike

[Gr8Dane]

Notice how the racers today aren't hanging off nearly as much as Doohan and Schwantz used to? Wonder why? I'm thinking it may have something to do with the modern technology delivering a more controlled supply of power, as opposed to the vicious 500 cc 2 strokes. Or possibly even an aerodynamic issue?

 

Will we see attempts at creating aerodynamic cornering down-force in the future?

Right now aerodynamics seem to center on creating maximum speed.

 

Porsche did the same thing back in 1969 with the long tail 917, that could reach 250 Mph or so. The cost of slipperiness was an unstable monster that few dared drive. At top speed there was so much lift that the front wheels barely steered. Introduced in 1970, the 917 short-tail had gobs of down-force, and won LeMans overall for the Porsche's first time ever. This was due to the greater down-force which not only stabilized the car but also allowed for higher cornering speeds at the cost of a slightly reduced top-speed.

[faffi]

I think they actually hang off more now if you count total body weight, but their butts were generally off more back then. But (pun intended) Elias is more off both seat and elsewhere than them old style riders you mention. Stoner, although he has an extreme style, is still fairly representative for modern riding styles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bradvanhorn]

It seems to me current riders are getting more upper body off the bike whereas older riders were getting more butt off the bike. For example, I did a quick search to compare pics of Doohan with pics of Lorenzo - Doohan's elbow looks to be directly above his knee and with a clear space between, whereas Lorenzo's knee and elbow nearly are at the same level and touching. More upper body getting low = more better

[Gr8Dane]

Dunno. Maybe it's improved tire technology that allows lean angles un-heard of in the 500 cc era? I seem to recall seeing pictures of Schwantz with not much more than his calf and boot hooked over the seat. More body weight hanging off = less lean angle? I think we need professional help on this issue.....any one of the pro's care to chime in ?

 

Aerodynamics : Lets for the sake of argument suggest that Ducati develops

a fairing shape that actually produces more down-force when leaned over.

This could be something as simple as body work that flexes when the air flow reaches a certain angle of attack. This could be done very discretely without anyone noticing, at least not at first. Maybe it's already being done!

 

Not all that far fetched. Look at the ( in my opinion) really weird shape of the body work and various winglets and spoilers and Gurney flaps on F1 cars today. Some of these parts flex and bend as the wind hits them. Surely, some of this science can be applied to bikes? However, there is a trade-off : down-force equals drag.

 

The next problem would be that increased downforce could cause a weigh transfer to the front wheel, which is exactly what you don't want. So, would the movable winglets have an electronic or mechanical linkage to the suspension to counter-act forward weigh transfer ???

 

Why is weight transfer to the rear desirable? Simple: as you add power, accelerating out of a corner, you need the most traction possible. Weight transfer enhances this. God forbid you roll off the throttle = Instant weigh transfer to the front and the rear (along with all hell) brakes loose.

 

FYI, back in the late 60's and early 70's Porsche, Chapparal and quite a few others experimented with wings and spoilers acting directly on the suspension, rather than the body. This was rather promptly outlawed.

[Gr8Dane]

If you look at the pictures above, Elias' upper body seems to be draped back across the tank, and his entire butt is off the seat, whereas Stoners upper body is totally off the side of the bike, but his butt hasn't moved much more than half off the seat. Different styles. Stoners seems to produce better results?

[faffi]

As mentioned by more than me, they used to hang their butts low and keep their torso high back when. So it looked as if they were hanging off more, but Stoner have a higher % of his body weight on the inside half of the motorcycle than Doohan.

 

 

According to Code, you should not move your butt much off the seat, instead keeping your torso low and leaned way it. Also, bum and shoulders should be at 90% to the bike. If you look at Doohan, his body is twisted, inside hip leading as is his inside shoulder.

[faffi]

A more recent image of Doohan, still twisted on the bike

 

 

Hayden, more textbook

 

 

Gardner

 

 

Spencer

 

 

Schwantz and Rainey

 

[mugget]

If you look at the pictures above, Elias' upper body seems to be draped back across the tank, and his entire butt is off the seat, whereas Stoners upper body is totally off the side of the bike, but his butt hasn't moved much more than half off the seat. Different styles. Stoners seems to produce better results?

 

Stoners BP (body position) produces better results...? I understand what you're saying, but I don't think there's any point in trying to emulate a certain riders BP in the hope of achieving a better result. Don't forget that Elias is a World Champion as well. What works for one rider may be completely inappropriate for another. It would seem to be far more beneficial to look at overall trends, understand the reason behind them, then try to achieve the same result in your own riding using which ever means are suitable for you.

 

In a previous discussion here on the forums and interesting point was mentioned, that had to do with the reason for the recommendation of the "classic" BP, as opposed to something like Elias BP. The reason is that the majority of riders would have a real hard time riding like Elias without making unwanted inputs and hanging onto the 'bars to stabilise themselves on the bike. So it would seem that being "locked on" and having stability on the bike is one of the main factors that would dictate what BP a person could use. Obviously Elias, Stoner and others with an extreme riding style have found a way to use their style without using the 'bars to hold themselves on the bike, and without having their BP cause unwanted inputs.

[Gr8Dane]

Great photo's all, thank you! But we're going off topic here: The question was raised because I want to understand why the riding style has changed?

[ScrmnDuc]

The answer is simple.

Education.

[ktk_ace]

some points i observed personally:

 

different body types= different favorite hang off positions?

 

Different bike bodies= different favorite hang off positions?

 

500CC bikes, if you look at the 500CC yamaha's, the weight was pretty low with the tank right at the the bottom of the bike...

 

 

[faffi]

Obviously Elias, Stoner and others with an extreme riding style have found a way to use their style without using the 'bars to hold themselves on the bike, and without having their BP cause unwanted inputs.

 

Yet they hold on hard enough that their hands blister and bleed. Enough so that Stoner pees on his hands to toughen the skin http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2012/Jun/120605pp.htm

[ktk_ace]

Obviously Elias, Stoner and others with an extreme riding style have found a way to use their style without using the 'bars to hold themselves on the bike, and without having their BP cause unwanted inputs.

 

Yet they hold on hard enough that their hands blister and bleed. Enough so that Stoner pees on his hands to toughen the skin http://www.superbike...un/120605pp.htm

 

wow, this sounds so much like the local "free combat" club where the hardcore members would hammer their knuckles to the wall everyday.

 

"pups" will start with a few rolls of towel to act as a cushion and unwrap one layer after some number of days.

 

 

 

[Gr8Dane]

Stoner at 1500 fps. Awesome!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Z4snkUUolJ0

[mugget]

Obviously Elias, Stoner and others with an extreme riding style have found a way to use their style without using the 'bars to hold themselves on the bike, and without having their BP cause unwanted inputs.

 

Yet they hold on hard enough that their hands blister and bleed. Enough so that Stoner pees on his hands to toughen the skin http://www.superbike...un/120605pp.htm

 

 

Well I think I've heard it all now!!

 

 

But thinking about the blisters... what other types of riding would regularly see blistered hands? Motocross/off road? But even then, is it worth trying to make that connection? Do we know if the blistered hands are common across all MotoGP riders? Maybe that agains is down to an individual style thing. It would be interesting to know if they really do use the handlebars to keep themselves on the bike, if so - that seems like a risky proposition to me! Or another possibility could be that they use a tight grip so their hands don't slip off, but keep their arms loose so as not to make unwanted inputs.

 

The other thing to consider about the different riding styles is that the MotoGP bikes of today are probably much more predictable and stable than 500 GP machines for example (actually many riders have said as much, Rossi comes to mind). So when we see those photos of past 500 GP riders who seem to be crossed up on the bike, I would tend to think that one of their main goals is to stay as centred and close to the bike as possible so they can better respond to the bike bucking & weaving. Whereas we rarely see modern MotoGP bikes with a wheel out of line, so it's much more feasible to fully commit to an extreme hanging off style. But that can only be pushed so far, because the lean angles are consistently much greater, which means there's actually less room to hang off into. Even on modern sportbikes, it's not uncommon to see riders showing off by putting an elbow on the ground.

 

The reasons for hanging off remain the same, but I think those could be some reasons between the differences from 500 GP to MotoGP for example.

[faffi]

Many team managers and commentators (Kanemoto and Cameron to name just two) plus a lot of top level riders have said that sitting with bum down and torso up reduce the chance of a high-side and also that if you do suffer a high-side, you will be thrown less high and in a less harmful direction since you're already pointing in the right direction If you think of a sling, the longer the arch, the longer the item will fly. So if you hang off to the extreme you will have a higher exit speed leaving the bike than if you hang on to the extreme on the outside.

 

As to blisters in their hands, I cannot really say why they get them, but most top rank riders have always taped up their hands - and still get blisters. So they obviously use a lot of force on the grips, if nothing else. Probably more in the 70s when chassis design was poor and bikes had lots of rake, trail and wheelbase in order to stay somewhat in line. But I still think you need more than a quick push to the inside handlebar to find the final tenths around a race track; my guess is that it's pretty violent with massive pushing and pulling on the bars and use of legs. Stoner used to wear out the soles of his boots every race weekend! So racing at the top level is probably like most things in life; the closer you get to the limit, the higher the effort for every little gain. Chopping one second off your lap time at world level probably cost 3 times as much energy as just sitting at your current pace.

 

Disclaimer: I'm just guessing, I have no first hand knowledge on these matters.

[tmckeen]

I don't think getting blisters is really a indication of having a death grip on the bars, consider how easily you can develop blisters on your hands from operating a shovel for 45 min, you never really death grip a shovel but the constant abrasion on your palms nets you a blister all the same. If anything I would say its a indication of just how active and demanding riding at that level really is. I read a interview quote once, I think it was Rossi but I'm not sure, comparing the state of GP riding now and of yesteryear which was basically that a long time ago it was quite common for GP riders to win the race and casually enjoy a smoke, but now riders finish the race and are physically exhausted, and as the technology has improved through the years the effort required of the rider has increased alongside it.

[Alfred.Rodriguez]

Hhhhmmm... Just something to share, a comparison shot between TOTW1 (Keith Code) and TOTW2 (I dont know who the rider is):

 

 

Indeed has riding technology evolved with bike technology...

[Hotfoot]

I've got to believe that the difference in the position of the handlebars/clipons makes a big difference here.

[csmith12]

"When the track has the traction and the tires have the grip, you are awarded more freedoms in riding sytle." - Me

 

I feel it differs between tracks, tires and rider mood. Sometimes I am really aggressive, other times... not so much.

[faffi]

Crash.net:

How did you develop your all action style?

 

Toni Elias:

It just came naturally. I think that people like it because they're always telling me how they enjoy seeing me almost off my bike with my knees and elbow scraping the ground.

 

I was always criticised by teams for it though because they would say it wasn't good because my body was totally outside the bike. They said that I didn't put enough weight on the tyres and therefore that the tyres didn't heat up and that's why I didn't have traction.

 

Now Marc Marquez has got a similar style though and he's winning and that made me very happy because it shows that that style was not a problem. I'm happy that Marc is winning with a similar style to mine as it vindicates what I was saying. Sure we are a little bit different but our elbows are down near the ground and our backsides are also hanging off the bike.