Am I Pushing My Front Power Pure On The Track If It's Not Worn Edg

[utahphunk]

Full title: Am I Pushing My Front Power Pure On The Track If It's Not Word Edge-to-Edge?

 

I've taken the CSS level 1 course a few years ago, and I did my first regular track day 2 weeks ago. I had a few moments where I felt like I was in too fast and was pushing/sliding the front tire in a few corners as I ran way wide, off the brakes, but not yet into maintenance throttle. My front tire chicken strips were down to a consistent 1/3 of an inch at that point, just to give an idea of how much lean angle I was normally holding.

 

My bike is a 2004 CBR1000RR with a good, fresh suspension setup, with a Power Pure 2ct on the front and a Pilot Power on the rear (worn all the way to the edge.) Cold pressure was at a Michelin tire rep recommended 32 cold and the tires were warmed up when I had these moments. I don't have enough pace to get my knee down, but it's close (and I'm not crossed up trying to make that happen.) These were ideal conditions for maximum traction, meaning there was nothing about my tires, the bike or the track that would cause tires to slide.

 

My question is this: Is it even possible that I was actually pushing/sliding the front in those situations if my front tire wasn't even worn all the way to the edge? Is that even possible? Or was I actually just mis-interpreting some feedback from the bike? I'm not doing anything ill-timed or SR-based in the corner, other than "deciding" I'm in too fast and I need to run wide. I did not get a chance to have a more experienced rider follow me to tell me what they saw, and the track photographer didn't get any shots of me, either.

 

Thanks!

[BLSJDS]

When you say "pushing", do you mean sliding? As in you felt like the front tire was losing grip (sliding) and causing you to run wide?

 

In general - if your tires are in good condition & up to temperature, you are NOT on the brakes, and track conditions are good (meaning no debris on the track, pavement in good shape, etc), there is VERY little chance of you losing front end grip when you initiate your turn in. So my guess is no - I don't think you were pushing / sliding the front tire when you were turning the bike. Perhaps, like you mentioned, you misinterpreted some feedback from the bike.

 

I would focus on what caused you to believe you were "in too fast" and needed to run wide .

[lukem]

I think looking at chicken strips as a gauge of how much grip you have is a bad idea and will probably end in tears! In all my time riding/racing bikes, I have never worn a front tyre all the way to the edge. I just don't think the profile allows it.

[utahphunk]

When you say "pushing", do you mean sliding? As in you felt like the front tire was losing grip (sliding) and causing you to run wide?

Yes, I do mean sliding (and I've edited my OP.) But I was already running wide when i think my front tire started sliding.

 

I started to run wide because my higher entry speed required more lean angle than I "believed" I could hold. Once I started running out of track width to get it turned, I had to tighten up my turn and increase lean angle before I ran off. It was that last lean angle increase where I thought I felt some sliding from the front tire. Specifically, it was much later than turn-in. (And I was still zero throttle and no brakes during these adventures.)

 

I think looking at chicken strips as a gauge of how much grip you have is a bad idea and will probably end in tears! In all my time riding/racing bikes, I have never worn a front tyre all the way to the edge. I just don't think the profile allows it.

I'm not caught up in the "chicken-strips = wimpy rider" game at all, I promise. I'm almost certain the profile of a performance front tire does allow it, but you certainly have more experience at speed than I do. If you've never worn a front tire edge-to-edge, have you ever pushed the front enough to make it slide?

[khp]

I think looking at chicken strips as a gauge of how much grip you have is a bad idea and will probably end in tears! In all my time riding/racing bikes, I have never worn a front tyre all the way to the edge. I just don't think the profile allows it.

This is also my experience.

 

I have previously worn a front tyre (supersport/road type) to the edge, but that was due to scrubbing off speed (but not sliding) with the front tyre all the way to the apex (not recommended).

 

Kai

[Hotfoot]

I think looking at chicken strips as a gauge of how much grip you have is a bad idea and will probably end in tears! In all my time riding/racing bikes, I have never worn a front tyre all the way to the edge. I just don't think the profile allows it.

 

I agree with this 100%, I've never worn a front tire to the edge either (on a big bike like a 600 or 1000). On the small bikes (RS125 size) I've done it, but on those low hp bikes the rear tires are much narrower; I think the much wider rear tire of the bigger bikes is why the front don't wear to the edge.

 

Yes you can "push" the tire even without having the bike leaned way over, and the most common reason (aside from braking too hard while leaned over) is being stiff on the bars, which overloads the front tire and does not allow the handlebars to move to compensate for irregularities in the road.

[YellowDuck]

A Power Pure 2ct is a sport touring tire. If you are running the rear Power Pure to the edges with good body position, I would suggest that you may well be over-riding your front tire. You may even feel it more while at intermediate lean angles where you are still on the harder compound segment of the tire. Several guys I know who ran the 2cts gained a lot of confidence when they got rid of them and went to a more sport-oriented tire with single compound construction. Those were riders doing mid-intermediate group times, and getting their knees down (albeit not with very good body position as I recall).

 

I am not discounting the possibility of technique playing into this - I have personally experienced the front tire doing weird stuff when I was too stiff on the bars - but it really sounds like you might also be due for a tire upgrade.

 

Just my 2 cents - I am definitely not an expert!

[utahphunk]

A Power Pure 2ct is a sport touring tire. If you are running the rear Power Pure to the edges with good body position, I would suggest that you may well be over-riding your front tire. You may even feel it more while at intermediate lean angles where you are still on the harder compound segment of the tire. Several guys I know who ran the 2cts gained a lot of confidence when they got rid of them and went to a more sport-oriented tire with single compound construction. Those were riders doing mid-intermediate group times, and getting their knees down (albeit not with very good body position as I recall).

 

I am not discounting the possibility of technique playing into this - I have personally experienced the front tire doing weird stuff when I was too stiff on the bars - but it really sounds like you might also be due for a tire upgrade.

 

Just my 2 cents - I am definitely not an expert!

 

The Michelin site shows the Power Pure as second in performance only to their Power One mostly-track tire. I'm not contesting anything else you're saying, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

 

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Please keep them coming!

[comptonchinee]

I have Power Pure on my road going Fireblade, and they are NOT a sport-touring tyre, they are, as said above, as sport, as a road going sport tyre can get!!

[YellowDuck]

A Power Pure 2ct is a sport touring tire. If you are running the rear Power Pure to the edges with good body position, I would suggest that you may well be over-riding your front tire. You may even feel it more while at intermediate lean angles where you are still on the harder compound segment of the tire. Several guys I know who ran the 2cts gained a lot of confidence when they got rid of them and went to a more sport-oriented tire with single compound construction. Those were riders doing mid-intermediate group times, and getting their knees down (albeit not with very good body position as I recall).

 

I am not discounting the possibility of technique playing into this - I have personally experienced the front tire doing weird stuff when I was too stiff on the bars - but it really sounds like you might also be due for a tire upgrade.

 

Just my 2 cents - I am definitely not an expert!

 

The Michelin site shows the Power Pure as second in performance only to their Power One mostly-track tire. I'm not contesting anything else you're saying, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

 

Thanks for all the replies everyone. Please keep them coming!

 

 

Sorry, pretty sure I must have confused them with the Pilot Power 2cts, since you said 2ct. Of course, the Power Pures are a 2-compund technology (2ct) tire too, but 2ct is not part of their "name". Honestly, Michelin's system for naming their tires is a tad confusing.....

[lukem]

I'm not caught up in the "chicken-strips = wimpy rider" game at all, I promise. I'm almost certain the profile of a performance front tire does allow it, but you certainly have more experience at speed than I do. If you've never worn a front tire edge-to-edge, have you ever pushed the front enough to make it slide?

 

Haha - sorry dude, that wasn't what I was getting at (I don't buy into that wimpy rider thing either). What I mean is probably best summed up by my old suspension tuner.

 

"Looking at the the tyres as a gauge for riding is as informative as looking at the stain on the bedsheets to find out how good the night before was!"

 

I have pushed the front many times and have still not worn to the edge. Even when I lost the front from leaning to far, have I not worn to them to the edge!

[utahphunk]

Sorry, pretty sure I must have confused them with the Pilot Power 2cts, since you said 2ct. Of course, the Power Pures are a 2-compund technology (2ct) tire too, but 2ct is not part of their "name". Honestly, Michelin's system for naming their tires is a tad confusing.....

 

Understandable. I did say I have a Pilot Power rear (which is actually called their "Pilot Power 2CT".) But still, even that model is just one step below the Power Pure.

[tmckeen]

Michelin actually has a "Pilot Power" and a "Pilot Power 2CT" in their lineup, one being a single compound and the other a dual compound tire. and I wouldn't consider either of them Sport Touring, I believe their sport touring tires are the Pilot Road 2 or Road 3. I've been using the Pilot Power on my R6 and have put about 6 days out at Streets on them, I felt their grip was plenty sufficient but I'll most likely be replacing them with a set of Q2's before my next track day as I feel my pace might be ready for something a little stickier

[jklepp@gmail.com]

Yes, you are pushing the front.

 

This summer I was at NCBike, and the trackside vendor only had Michelin Power Pures. My Dunlops were finished and I went with a set of Power Pures for my second day at the track. The front slid more in a day than I have ever slid the front on a Q2 or GP-A tire. I checked and double checked that I was running the right pressure and still kept feeling front slides. This track in particular had incredible grip so I would assume it's worse at other places.

 

The slides were really quite in control and I just stayed on the gas and it wasn't a problem. But who wants to ride on a tire like that? I will always choose a Dunlop or Pirelli over a Michelin after that experience.

 

Now, they did have two different profiles for the front tires. One was rounded, and one was more V shaped. I went with the rounded one, maybe the V shaped front would have held up better under track conditions.

 

Jeremiah

[faffi]

Strange, as I've heard many complain that Michelins just stick and don't give enough feedback, making them prefer other brands that slide a bit just like you described the Michelins did for you

[Hotfoot]

As I recall there is a VERY BIG difference between the "street" Power Pure and the track version sold by track vendors. The round profile is a more street oriented tire that is a lot less sticky on track. It's weird that they call both versions the PowerPure, quite confusing.

[utahphunk]

As I recall there is a VERY BIG difference between the "street" Power Pure and the track version sold by track vendors. The round profile is a more street oriented tire that is a lot less sticky on track. It's weird that they call both versions the PowerPure, quite confusing.

 

Yeah, they should at least call the track version of it the Power Purer or something to make things less confusing.

[Hotfoot]

As I recall there is a VERY BIG difference between the "street" Power Pure and the track version sold by track vendors. The round profile is a more street oriented tire that is a lot less sticky on track. It's weird that they call both versions the PowerPure, quite confusing.

 

Yeah, they should at least call the track version of it the Power Purer or something to make things less confusing.

 

Amen, or how about Mo' Power. Or RACE Power. Or Pure Race. Or Pure Race Power. Or... Jeez, this is easy, I can't believe they couldn't come up with other ideas!

[utahphunk]

Thanks to everyone for the discussion in this thread.

 

After thinking about everything more, I decided to focus on setting my corner speed a little earlier to avoid charging corners and putting myself into this position.

 

I also did more research and determined that my brake chatter problem was bad enough to address. So, I wet sanded the rotors and replaced the (very likely contaminated) brake pads and the chatter was gone.

 

So, less rushing while setting up for the corners and less wasted attention on brake chatter, and I rode much safer, looser and faster.

[mugget]

I'm a bit late to this tread, but I haven't been on the forum here for a while so I'm just doing a bit of catch up!

 

I'm not doing anything ill-timed or SR-based in the corner, other than "deciding" I'm in too fast and I need to run wide.

 

Do you mean deciding, or realising?

 

The reason I ask is that if you're deciding that you're going to need to run wide it implies that you're making a 2nd steering input based on that decision (which is usually not ideal). In that cause it doesn't seem like the problem is in the tyres...

 

 

I started to run wide because my higher entry speed required more lean angle than I "believed" I could hold. Once I started running out of track width to get it turned, I had to tighten up my turn and increase lean angle before I ran off. It was that last lean angle increase where I thought I felt some sliding from the front tire. Specifically, it was much later than turn-in. (And I was still zero throttle and no brakes during these adventures.)

 

 

I think you've just about answered your own question. If you run wide onto a dirty/dusty part of the track you would most likely notice the reduced grip out there. If you're out there on a dusty part of track making a 2nd turn input to increase lean angle even more, it seems like there's a fair chance your tyre did slide.

 

But that is not to be confused with over-riding your tyres! In all likelihood there is absolutely nothing wrong with your tyres!

 

From my experience using Power Pures on track, there is absolutely no problem with the front tyre. But the important thing to note is that I was only making one steering input and remaining relaxed on the 'bars. But I was entering corners faster than I ever had before, quick steering as fast as I dare and I did not once have a complaint from the front tyre. But the rear was another story, it seemed to consistently slide on initial throttle openings at moderate lean angle. But that was consistent and controllable, didn't worry me at all. I could have ridden around it and worked on going even faster on those tyres, maybe I will go back to them again (last couple of track days I have used an old set of BT-003 that I had sitting around). I think tyres are much more capable that most people realise. I wouldn't hesitate to use Power Pures again. I can easily ride at a comfortable pace towards the upper end of fast group at a track day (one group down from racers, people running slicks & tyre warmers etc.)

 

Back to the subject of running wide and needing to tighten your line... perhaps there is a way to tighten your line mid-corner without making a 2nd steering input and upsetting the bike? You seem comfortable with corner entry under zero throttle and zero brakes... what do you think would happen if you turned in, remained relaxed on the 'bars (not making any steering inputs), and didn't touch the throttle or brakes?

 

Skipping back over to the subject of switch to sportier tyres so you have more "confidence" - I absolutely agree with what Keith Code says about riding on a "lesser" tyre until you find it's limit and are comfortable with it. Power Pure just happened to be that tyre for me - it matched up with my skill level and I got really comfortable being able to slide the rear under throttle. In fact it also helped me to see the benefit of standing the bike up more before opening the throttle, and properly coordinating those actions. Whereas if I had gone straight to a tyre like BT003, there is much more grip and so I can easily open the throttle with more lean angle and not get a slide. But that doesn't teach me much, and the limits of those tyres are so much higher that if I had gone straight to them without first knowing the limits of a lesser tyre, there's really not much chance I would be able to safely find the limits of the sticky tyres.

 

Final comment - I believe that any kind of slide with the front tyre is not a problem with the tyre. Why do I say that? It's because of the fact that if a person is able to quick steer a bike fast enough to cause a tyre to slide, it will be the back tyre that slides first.