spthomas

My advice would be to not worry about dragging your knee just yet. I'm not that tall and I wondered if I was at a disadvantage compared to guys with long legs but I don't think it's that big of a factor. I'm the same height as Stoner, Lorenzo and Biaggi and I too eventually figured it out, but I wasn't after a half dozen track days and a school session. I don't think trying to drag your knee on public roads is a great idea with things like sand, gravel, animals, etc. around- wait till you get to the track. For countersteering I'd suggest finding an empty road or big empty parking lot where you can concentrate on just this one thing. Go slow, 50km/h is OK, an just gently push on one side of the bars, then the other. Then you can more clearly see that if you push on the left, the bike goes to the left etc.

Those sketches would be interesting to see! Sometimes there is a photographer at the track days and it's interesting to see what you looked like vs. how you felt. I think I'm getting the two angles more congruent (sounds like geometry class!). There seems to be an explosion of those compact video cameras at track days which I think would be helpful for seeing your real lean angle. My track day buddy bought one but went home early yesterday at a Nesba track day because of rain. I stayed and it eventually cleared up nicely and I got a couple of good sessions in, but alas, no video. I did get some useful comments from one of the control riders though.

Congratulation, that's great! It reminds of the line "experience is what you get just after you need it". Now you've got some!

You probably won't qualify for therapy, as reading through your list I don't see anything that isn't perfectly normal as far as I can see...

OK, I'll bite- what are you driving? I think we both have or had the same bike, a CBR600F4i. I drive an '06 Mini Cooper, manual- what a hoot! I had a chance to take it to a track a month ago (not the same one I used for the bike though) and got to push it a lot harder in corners than I do on the street. That was a good experience to find where the limits really are. I do agree there's a synergy in riding and driving.

Good point- yes that would be my preference. My worry may not really be justified, I've had a few people dive underneath me but not anyone cut in front of me. I'm not sure it's a real problem- I don't know that people are right there behind me- I could be out there all in my own space but I've made it a habit not to go looking around before I turn.

That's a good idea, I almost did that last track day but I have to get over the idea of giving up time, even a minute. But yes, I should be getting "quality time"!

I should be more organized a bit but in reading other material here I think my weak spot right now is the quick turn. But I also just realized why I'm holding back on the quick turn- being still in the beginning group, I'm nervous about doing something quick and running into someone else. I always make an effort to behave predictably so as to not cause problems and tangling up with other guys, and I've equated predictability with being slow and gradual in corners.

As a non-expert rider... one of the things about track riding that makes it so great is the demand for concentration and focus. My mind is pretty much just thinking about where I'm at and the next turn ahead and how to optimize getting there in the quickest way. It's that combination of mental conscious, mental sub-conscious, and physical that's unlike other things we normally do in our lives that makes playing hard so much fun. Here's something I've thought and am curious if others have experienced- mentally there seems to be a number of parallels between zipping around the track and playing a musical instrument. You have to think ahead to the next curve/measure, but not too far ahead or you may lose your place in the present; you have a certain pace/ rhythm you need to keep; practice and experience takes movements from the conscious to the sub-conscious; picking just the right line around a curve is like getting just the right phrasing; a really good performance of stringing all the lines together around the course is like a really good musical performance where the whole piece comes together; there's just a satisfaction and knowing when you get it right. I'll have to ask Toseland about this when he's in town in a few weeks...

This is a great question. One of my goals was to be able to get around the track at a decent speed with a good "flow", doing the things I know to do deliberately yet without having to over-think everything. My goal is to be fast enough that no one can pass me! I don't have a way to measure lap times, so I don't know how consistent I really am. They mentioned they set up a beacon- I need to look into what type of gadget uses that and how it works.

I've done several track days this year and feel like I'm making some progress. One thing I haven't done is make some plan like "I'm going to do this drill and that drill" etc. Do people do that!? I have another track day on Sep 5 or 6 so I'm thinking of what to work on next. I have been working on throttle, vision and BP issues in general.

I started on my sportbike when I was 49, much earlier than the other guys. I think you can do it without crashing although I have crashed once, but that was because (I think) I inadvertently hit the kill switch and got distracted in a turn with that "what the h*" feeling. I just had a track day Sunday and it was so much fun, as my riding is progressing and it was the most beautiful day (77, sunny, slight breeze). I think that if you love doing something, you will be good at it.

Now that you've been to the class, was there anything in particular you learned that addressed the original question about how to find or sense the traction limits?

Yeah, I don't think about the stability provided by wheels themselves but that is a big factor. And yes, I'm anxious to get back to school to try out those special bikes!

Bullet- My bike is completely stock and has the factory exhaust can. The only thing I've spent money on is the tires, and I added frame sliders. I don't want to put any more funds into it just for the hell of it- I'd rather spend it on track days and school- I'm basically selfish and want to make me a better rider, not the bike a better bike! That said, if there something I need to do to the bike to make me ride better, then I would do it. For traction, I think my fears are in the middle and end of the turn. In the middle, will it just go out from underneath me and how far can I lean over? I do remember though in school Keith asked how many times people had actually seen that of had that happen- the answer was essentially never. Also, at the exit, I'm careful about getting on the gas- I do it fairly gradually. I had the back end break loose once on the street going around a corner when the concrete was damp. My reaction was to not grab the steering tightly but just let it sort of self-correct, which it did. Because I haven't had much problems with traction, my basic fear is that something sudden and unexpected would happen, that I don't sense or see it coming. Steve

OK, I did.

Steve, Interesting points. Your the second person to say "knowing what speed I should going at what point" and i'm trying to discover how people set this? Claude also noted this earlier, and am trying to gauge what defines this for you? With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little. Could also let us know which levels you've done too? Bullet OK! Here's a new thread, although I'm sure there have been many in the past. First, I've done the level 1 school in August 2007. I want to get to level 2 this year because I know that would help a lot but I'm not sure if will work out with my schedule. I did 3 track days last year and two so far this year. As for a speed at some point, I can't say for sure how consistent I am each lap around the track, but I feel like I'm doing the exact same lines at the same speeds lap after lap. For reference points I pick imaginary spots on the track- there isn't necessarily some mark, but I just sort of triangulate my position in space based on the shape of the curve and all the things around, using my peripheral vision as a whole. It would be interesting to have a GPS system on my bike and then look at the data later to see how well my perceptions and reality match. As for traction limits, I've not really had any bad moments with slipping or wiggling which makes me think that I'm not so close to the edge (CBR6000F4i w/Dunlop Qualifiers), but I have scraped footrest feeler pegs a few times so I know the bike is leaned over as far as it should go before bad things happen. The 3 times that has happened my knee didn't touch, so that makes me think my body position isn't quite right. But I hear racers on TV talking about working on their setup, "pushing the front end", etc. and I have no idea what that really means from any of my own experience; I can't relate. I realize they're a whole lot more experienced of course and I'm not trying to be them, but I want to learn to "listen" to the bike and I'm not hearing much.

From my perspective as a less experienced rider, I would say: - throttle control, to keep things smooth enough so other bad things don't happen, - knowing what speed you should be going and at what point, - looking in the right place, - body position. One skill I have no handle on is knowing where my traction limits are. Am I at the edge of having the tires slip out from underneath me? Could I be going 30 mph faster? I just don't know. I've done two track days this year so far and was feeling a bit frustrated being at a a plateau but I did get to the point where I could consistently drag my knee at the same spot on the same turn for what that's worth. Only on the left side for some reason. I felt like I had the bike practically on its side but it's hard to tell for sure- the way you feel and the way it looks doesn't always match. The 2nd day there was a photographer so I bought some pictures- I look like I'm practically sitting upright going for Sunday ride. But I didn't crash, which was important- my 2nd day I rode my bike out to the track because I didn't have access to the trailer I had used in the past.

When I did level 1 in 2007 it was the second time I was on a track; had been riding sportbikes less than a year. I used to have a cruiser 9 years before that. I wasn't the fastest guy but I surely learned a lot. I would make sure you are comfortable riding your bike but wouldn't worry about having a lot of track experience. In some ways it's an advantage to learn early before you build up a lot of bad habits.

Welcome Grant! Welcome to the forum; you will have a good time in class.

That's impressive; I'm proud of you, glad for you. I think it brings a decrease of stress and increased mental acuity too- do find that to be true?

I don't think so. My buddy and I were going to go to VIR and ride our bikes there on an extended trip in that region (but still use the school bike for the school day, in case we mess up we still have a ride home!) but he has a business trip that conflicts with that location and date. Still not sure which class I'm coming to yet.

Looking at the speed tv website, it appears that the AMA races will be shown a week later. But the WSBK and MotoGP appears to be on the same weekend. WSBK shows the first race on Sunday and the others (race 2 and supersport) on Tuesdays. MotoGP lists on the same day but later in the evening. There could be a factor in that races in Europe give them time for editing, where races here don't. When I went to Level I class at mid-Ohio it was the Monday after an AMA race that Sunday. There were weather delays that Sunday so it missed the alloted time slot, so maybe they build in the delay just to be safe. Or yes, moto racing doesn't have the correct priority.

What station shows it in HD? We have comcast cable, and there is a Speed HD channel now.

I'm sure this can't be the right answer because I've done this, but I've stretched out my right leg (not sure why just that side) for a second or two because it was close to cramping. When this thread first started, that was my initial thought but I figured it was just me not being stretched out well. I don't know what the muscle on the outer side of the leg is called, but sometimes being in the squatted position up on the pegs causes it to get tight. I've ridden for long periods of time on the road with no problem, so if it happens again I'll have to see if it tied to other things like certain body position, locking onto the tank, etc. Yes, I'm enjoying WSBK this year too. Good racing, in hi-def too!