Derek Sauder

Im w/ you Kevin. I like to chase. Its funny how sometimes when you are chasing someone, you are faster in sections than when riding by yourself. Even if the person is a few hundred feet in front of you. I was talkin to a friend I was riding w/ at VIR, and I told him how I had in some sections when I was following. He then told me that when he was following me he had me in those same sections. My bike has a pretty good magnet in it! haha

If it's one thing that we've all agreed upon here it's get on the gas, gas, gas as soon as you can, can, can. You want to get on the gas as soon as possible. There is no specific point in a turn. And remember, the quicker you turn the bike, the sooner you are able to get on the gas.

Anyone have any seat time on the '09 ZX6R? Or the Duc 848?

Here's a 100% biased opinion We've had students with very little experience come to the school and it worked fine. Why get some years of bad habits that have to be worked out? We've had others that we have turned away, too little experience. Here is our yardstick: if they have attention on the control actions of the bike, like shifting, braking, letting the clutch out then they should get more experience. In many cases, if we can get them BEFORE they start their track riding, we can save a lot, in one way or another. The 2-day camps are the least students, the most help we can offer, its a very nice format, we (and the students) like it a lot. The difference in speed is handled with the passing rule, which is pretty simple: rider in front has the right of way, overtaking rider no closer than 6-8 feet. Firm on that, doesn't matter who. One of our recent Vegas schools we had a returning rider (hadn't ridden in 15 years while having children), and she was on the track with a current 250 GP racer. Both had a great 2 days. C Based on personal experience, I would highly recommend taking a CSS class before any significant track time. All of my previous times on a track before taking level 1 I was w/ friends and they're friends who helped w/ technique and lines, as well as just learning things myself. I didn't have a ton of track time so things I was doing wrong haven't been hard to correct or atleast work on. What I found after taking level 1 was that since I had a good base to start w/, it was much harder to notice some of the changes that the school made in my riding. This was from being told what to do w/ little to no knowledge or learning of why. I just did it because I saw someone doing it or because thats what they told me to do. I really had to work hard at retaining the info covered in the school because some changes were small and didn't stick out in my mind. I still learned alot of information and made improment in my riding, and I definitely would tell anyone that wants to start doing track days to take the CSS school first! I wish that I had!

Love the slide in the first pic Stuman! Here's another from VIR in the fall. Turn 3.

Level one at VIR, Sept. 08. Turn 5.

Lol Cobie, putting a 14 year old on a ZX6? hahaha Look at the pictures from some of the schools, on the School's site. I believe there is a 13-14 year old girl on a ZX-6R.

A "free" mile an hour? Would that be because you were able to enter the turn faster, and obey TR rule #1, you don't have to use as much of you traction to exit the turn w/ the same speed as you had before the "free" mile an hr? If that is the case, it makes simple and perfect sense that you could use the same about of traction, lean angle as before with no extra cost/risk. You would obviosly exit atleast a mile an hr faster.

Sorry for the double post, don't know how to get rid of it. Hubbard, I get what you are saying. Yes, if you have to stop rolling on the throttle that would mean you have failed TR #1. But if you induced the rear end slide by applying too much throttle already, you would have failed at TR #1 already. However, not chopping the throttle off is also a huge part of throttle control. You must maintain good throttle control after the slide has started to keep from highsiding.

Hubbard, I think you need to go back and read what I said just a few post prior.

Hubbard, Yes, that is basically what I was talking about in regards to TR #1.

Ace, Exactly... I feel the same way! Just check it out in Twist 2 if you don't agree. Page 15.

Stuman, I am talking about at full lean. You say that you need to catch the slide very early, and I couldn't agree more. But what do you do to keep it from going, weeeeeeeeeee, or highsiding? Haha... i like the weeeeeeeeee. And I too know how fast it can happen at full lean. At VIR two years ago I had it to go so fast i saw smoke to my left on a left hand turn. I was able to manage it but, it was luck and not skill, because I didn't have great throttle control at that time. Im still working on it actually. I would have to say that most people aren't real concerned about a slide unless they are at full lean, or whatever that person maxium comfort lean angle is. I posted above what I believe through studyin, twist 2, what should be done. Not to get smart w/ you, but what do you believe should be done at full lean if a slide occurs? Doesn't the art of cornering get to pushing the limits of traction at full lean at some point or another? Don't we all want to find where that limit is so we can avoid abusing it? Maybe we should go to the section that Cobie or Keith has on "bands of traction" to further the discusion of traction.... i don't know.

I think once your back tire is sliding out from under you, throttle rule #1 has gone out the window. Whether or not the bike is going to buck you off or not is up to you for a brief instant, but when you watch people get in that position, the bike shutters regardless because your tires are out of line, and it's straightening itself out. Yes, you will lowside if you keep up throttle rule #1, but having done all 3, I will say that I prefer saving the bike over the other two options. Maybe I should have said it a bit differently. I wasn't tryin to say that you should cut off all throttle. If you already gave it too much throttle, which caused the rear end slide, what happens if you continue applyin that amount of throttle? On the other hand, what happens if you shut off the throttle? Where would the weight be? If you shut off the throttle after inducing the rear end slide by applyin too much throttle, you would have violated the throttle rule altogether, right? The key is to get the bike to slow gradually. To give yourself the best chance at avoiding a highside, wouldn't it make sense to just stop rolling on the throttle?

Racer, if the email sent out is correct... which i believe it is, there is not Mid O on the schedule. I wonder whats going on there.

What about thinning hair Racer? Wait, am i getting off topic? Maybe i should start a new thread. lol

What are the forces that predict the turning arc of a motorcycle? If we use a given speed and lean angle and use the same turn-in speed, why would the same rider not have the same arc through a turn? What other variables are there in a turning arc? What is required in order to change the steering angle? Thanks guys for working this through with me. If the front of the bike is compressed some, then the bike will turn quicker.

Decent description for sure. The key is the sudden snapping back, sudden regaining traction. That is where bike and rider often part ways. Cobie, So then the way to keep from high siding when the rear slides is to keep the rear from sliding more, and keep it from regaining traction. Basically you have to control the slide untill you are able to come out of the turn and slowly get the traction back to the tire. Right?

Racer, Yes I know what a quick flick is. And im not arguing or whatever else. I know sometimes its hard to tell the tone of voice one wants a reader to read his post in. haha. I am also back on the gas before the apex. Well sometimes i just play around w/ different things. Really helps ya learn when you can safely do that. Understand the how and why or certain things. Back more on the topic. Almost all fast riders are ones who are able to complete the turn the quickest. Thats what allows them to get back to the throttle. As I see it, the turning of the bike is completed well before the apex. Atleast it should be. Whatever the lean angle is, get to that lean angle as quick as possible. Your turn is complete and get back to the gas. Any corrections(more lean angle, on/off the throttle) means you missed something. Turn in point, speed, lean angle, or possibly all three. Corrections? And yes, Spies is comfortable at a much faster pace! Correct me if i am wrong, but the turn starts when you begin to lean the bike. If you start to lean the back at you entry point, and continue to increase lean agle all the way to the apex, then that is your turn. That would be a long turn, keeping you from getting back to the throttle. Right? Throttle rule, don't be on the gas while increasing lean agle. So say that you travled 30 feet from the time you started to lean, to the point of max lean. 30 feet where you were not on the gas. Now, imagine being able to turn the bike in 10 feet. You would be on the gas 20 feet before the person who was using 30 feet to turn. Which one would get you to the exit faster?

Cobie, Racer, Def. get what you are sayin and agree. That is what I do, just was kinda thinkin about it in a different way I guess. When I read "off gas, brake downshitft, look, turn, roll on" it came to me and I realized I was kinda thinkin that but that wasn't really what I said in my earlier post. For some reason I had this idea you were saying that you were off the throttle to the apex. But that wouldn't quite be a quick flick. Maybe Jaybird is thinkin the same way I was. Derek

Yep. You got it. Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle. Closed throttle on turn-in???? Whatever happened to turning in at maintenance throttle? I don't think I ever want go into a turn w/ a closed throttle. If you go into a turn w/ a closed throttle, wouldn't you start to run on the inside of you apex? You just don't want to be accelerating when you flick the bike. If you don't maintain you throttle possition how would you control you line? As far as being on the brake into the turn... Isn't the bike harder to turn or flick if you are on the brake? Wouldn't that be a deterant to turning as quickly as possible?

I would say that this is a question but answered by Cobie! But if you think about a few things im sure you could figure it out own you own fairly well. What would happen if you shut the throttle off all the way? Low side from losing speed/transfering too much weight to the front end? High side from the bike standing straight up? Obviously you want to stay between the two, right? I have had this happend once on the track and a few times on the street and I have been able to back off the throttle enough to maintain the slide till I was able to bring the bike up and out of the turn. If you stay on the throttle it will continue to slide, so, from my own conclusion you need to back off enough to control the slide w/out it increasing, and w/out loading the front or high siding. Im interested to hear what others have to say about this as well!

There have been a few coaches that have had the surgery, no ill effects that I know of. CF I wear contacts all the time. I have, on occasion, had a contact come out cause i stopped blinkin. guess i was gettin really into the riding. i started getting some of the one day contacts for when i go to the track because they seem to stay hydrated much better than a week old pair of monthly or bi-monthly contacts. and i still make sure i have a few back ups in the pocket of my leathers so i don't lose any of that precious track time! i have wore glasses a time or two on the street i didn't like it at all. they seemed to move around a bit and i didn't like blurred objects from underneath or above my glasses when they moved. just opinion on the glasses, but would def. get one day contacts for the track(if you go w/ contacts).

We have tried them both, and for sheer grip, the stomp grip is very good. That's what I'd use if I was racing. The tech spec works well all around, and has worked well for us. CF Stomp Grip works great on the track, however, if you wear anything other than leather on the street you will def. feel them. They can hurt! The thing that I found though was that if im going to be riding where im hard on the brakes or leaning that much I have leather on anyway. They will rub on your leathers quite a bit. Mine are abit scuffed on the inside thigh and knee area. If you want something for all around help and comfort I would go w/ the Tech Spec grips!

I have also heard that Kiwi has a high amount of potasium. Not sure where I got that from but I will look for it. However, the trick w/ kiwi, and some other fruits is that there are more vitamins in the skin. Not always fun w/ the fuzzy skin on a kiwi, but you can get a fair amount off by rubbing it in your hands. It isn't too bad! Cobie, could you talk more about the bio-plasma you mentioned above? Very curious!