csmith12

The quick and dirty.... If the suspension has been serviced & sprung, your next step is to have it set to your weight & preferences (sag and so on) by a suspension tech. They are somewhat common at the larger track events and normally cost under $50 in my area. After that, you just have to put some laps on it to tweak it out. I had a similar issue last year and for my riding style on my r6, I added a click or so of rebound to my rear until it feels "floaty" under max braking but stay inline with the front. A click or two of compression in the front may be in order as well. Your rider/bike combo may be different. Assuming if everything is set up as close as possible, how is your corner setup under very heavy braking? That would be a common place for a SR and the BP setup is not as smooth as it could be maybe? Does your bum slide into the tank under hard braking? You setting up your BP before getting off the gas? Basically what I am getting at is, your shift in body position could be causing the bike to become unstable and slide out a bit. So maybe a bit of technique could be a simple answer.

Got a Kindle Fire HD for xmas. Can't wait to read it again.

So many factors here.... In the wet a ninja 250 with 27hp can break loose the rear. Under perfect conditions, there is not enough power to spin it up. So yea, depending on your tire compound, tire temp, lean angle, speed, track surface and so on... a rider could loose traction due to throttle inputs. Some even spin it up on purpose, as it's their "style". One must alter their riding for the conditions their riding in, even if it's just "take it easy the first lap until your tires warm up". It's common for me to be just under the rev limiter at corner exit. So yea, I enter a lot of corners at or near max torque. Just gotta try to leave yourself some roll-on room because shifting mid corner is not preferred but it does happen depending on the rider, line through the corner and so on, think long sweepers. Having put some time in on an older fireblade, I completely understand why you want to keep the revs up. Even though she was smooth all the way through, at least for me the bike felt so much better at a higher rpm. Maybe because I normally ride an r6. What makes you ask? Just curious? Have you experienced slipping mid corner?

The physics makes sense and it all seems to be logical. I really wish I had some footage of my BP going through this section. I petitioned some of my friends who track with me very often for footage of me or anyone else that is really smooth and fast through this section for comparison and review. The only thing I can add to this right now is that maybe I am not using my leg to anchor my countersteer during the transition from right to left. That would give me additional power to offset the additional muscle needed to turn under load without the total strength coming from the upper body. Just got to get back out there and give it a shot. Happy holidays and best wishes in the new year!

Ah... I see. Sounds like you may benefit greatly by riding the braking bike at CSS. I learned what my brakes were capable of by research, asking questions, the school of hard knocks and trial and error. I am sure you know but a well set up bike can scrub A LOT of speed in a very short distance. For example; I go from 145ish mph to 85ish mph in about 350ft coming up on turn 7 at Mid-Ohio. I don't like to tell anyone it just takes seat time instead I like to say, it takes "seat time with goals" to get to intimately know your bikes brakes as they relate to your skills. You will know when you get to that point when your braking marker is deep, the rear may float just off the ground from time to time, and your entry speed is comfortable. It takes faith in your bikes brakes, traction and even more faith in yourself that you can get the bike slowed down enough to make the turn in point at a controllable speed. I am not sure if it's right or wrong but I load the front with a quick roll off to zero throttle at my braking marker to initially load the front, before a progressively harder (but quick) squeeze of the front brake. This happens in around 2 seconds. Once the front is fully loaded up, I start to blip down gears. In the end, it sounds like your fighting one of the big SR's (over-braking). Let's look at this a different way.... What triggers your need to brake so early?

I am unsure how it is instructed at CSS but what I was taught was to pick a braking reference point with a large margin of error, get comfortable with it, move it a bike length deeper and get comfortable with that. Repeat until very mild SR's trigger. Be mindful that some SR's are very very subtle. When you find that point, stay there until it's comfortable and you can perform good cornering technique throughout. I see a couple of other things here; How are your visual skills? What are you looking at and when? May I suggest starting with the 2step drill to get a handle on your visual skills so you can more accurately control the bike based on the information that really matters. How long does it take you to load the front before the hard braking (while straight up and down)?

Welcome!

I think he looks great! If you want to nit pick things, you could ask him to tighten up that outside knee on the tank. But hey, he is workin' it.

Welcome Rob!

I am definitely sure I am not tight on the bars. I have many pics of my riding where my hands aren't even fully wrapping the grip, rigid arms maybe. And good reassurance that body weight isn't gunna help me.

Thanks for the additional info Brad. I have video (helmet cam) and a lap timer. So no real telemetry but my lap times are normally within a few seconds of each other, give or take for traffic and how tired I get. I will have to dissect my videos to get my time through this section for direct comparison. I will add that to my TODO list for my next track day there. Maybe I am not loosing as much as I think but it sure feels like I can go much faster. So I have 2 main choices; Higher entry speed - to get a roll off during transition Suck it up - More muscle to quick flick with better technique In the end, I most likely will end up having to come to terms with both if I want to guard against the pass on the inside or pull farther ahead.

Thanks for the insight aslcbr600, Aside of just having to push harder to countersteer... I think I might just be lazy on my hip flick and be using body weight to aid flicking the bike over as I slide across the seat. If that is the case, it would also tell me I am late doing other things. Like finding my visual markers in time. I will continue to tweak to my preferences mblaster. I have all winter to make any changes I have already identified, I will double check everything to ensure I haven't missed anything. My OCD will kick in I am sure. I think I am getting really, really close to figuring out what this chicane as well as the rest of the track is asking of me and the bike. Thanks for you help everyone, I can't wait to get out there on the track to put some of these thoughts to the test.

Well then.... your obvious answer is when you start to drag elbow, you have leaned over enough. lol.... I'm joking.... seriously just joking. Seriously though... read up on the knee to knee drill. That should help explain what we mean when we say keep both knees on the tank as you slide across the seat. It's awesome in the chincanes but works just the same for any given corner. The only differences are you keep both knees on the tank for heavy braking and let your knee fall or relax into place when you turn in. For you it may not be as much as the next rider but still the same none the less. Your specific style may vary it a bit as well. Search on youtube for UK Superbike School (CSS in the UK), they have a awesome set of videos that may be of interest to you. I find it very helpful to review things as well. Best of luck to you and happy riding!

Yep, the knee out leg. Well... the flexibility issue is something to note but it's not mandatory to drag a knee. Just touch and go, ya know. I try not to grind away my $40 in knee pucks in a couple of track days. Many times I don't even drag a knee, as well as many of my lines require leaning the bike past a knee touch. So it requires me to pick up my knee. Anyway... Will your knee not fall farther down as your head and upper body goes down?

The light bulb went off for me when I learned I can slide a cheek off (throttle still on) and still keep both legs/knees locked on the tank during hard braking. The trick is to find the "sweet spot" on the seat for you as the rider. Then as posted above, just relax your leg (knee out) and flow the upper body into the turn at the turn in point. Seems like your logical order of events is pretty close, just there is no defined point to crack the throttle open. From my point of view, after steering is complete. We know we also trail brake to finalize entry speed too but the sooner the better. Also you just mention focusing on the exit? Is there anything else that might be helpful to look at or for?

As a matter of fact I have made suspension changes but I have not really been focusing on this section when it comes to suspension. The stock components have been mostly set to my weight and riding preferences. I have been tweaking front rebound and compression for 3 or 4 track days prior (all the same track). I was thinking I am getting it close to dialed in. The rear feels great and the front was getting really close. Throughout the rest of the track, I was knocking out a few soft spots and everything is starting to feel planted in most areas. I have baselined and balanced my setup at 32mm of sag and have added some rebound the rear and on the front I added 2 clicks of rebound for late braking (I ride a ninja 250 too) and a bit of compression to keep the dive to a minimum for the really hard braking. I stopped changing things when the rear would kind of lightly skip across the tarmac that last 100ft coming into turn one under hard braking after the long straight. The rear settles nicely as I start to trail off just before turn in. Since the bike feels outstanding in every other part of the track accept for 1 other place, I am thinking this a rider issue rather than a bike problem. Not only that but other riders are still beating me through this section on basically equal bikes. One of those riders rides and 08 r6, he said to lower the front 1 or 2 mm at a time until I like it but I am unsure of that. I am reluctant to mess with a good thing that I have going aside of a couple small things. I have also tried a different set of tires. I am a big fan of Q2's but I also really like the michelin power cups for their turning characteristics, they have great grip too. The V profile really helps flickability, even under load. Right now I have the power cup on the front and the power one on the rear. Maybe I should get the cup on the rear as well. It feels like I am sooooo close.

Great timing! I am a month into my "off season" training. You know better than I if it warrants it's own subforum. Water... water.... and more water...

Gripping with my legs doesn't seem wrong, just the humping the tank part, ie. sitting far forward in the seat. Maybe I just need to find the sweet spot. And I bet, my upper body is popped up. I wonder if I keep more body weight forward to go along with it. Thanks...

Hmmmm, not smooth as in the hands and bar area. When transitioning from right to left in the middle of the chicane, I have a very rigid grip on the bars and a really hard push to countersteer. Maybe I am somewhat jerky during that hard push where it takes more muscle to flick over. Could be as simple as I am somewhat charging the second corner? I do miss my line every now and then but I was blaming it on not getting the bike over fast enough at the end of the day when tired. Dunno if that is right though. And..... Sure, there are plenty of faster riders. I have asked them about line and throttle control. I got 2 common answers about line and the throttle control answers was a mixed bag. For line, there seems to be two that are very common. First is a lazy line, starting way outside and early apex through the first corner to straiten it out and carry more speed, with braking and a quick flick into the second corner of the chicane (easy flick). It's not as fast and leaves me open to passes on the inside. The second is the race line (shown from control riders & me watching AMA races), it has a mid-track entry with an early apex on the first corner that guards the inside pass and straightens out the entire chicane. It's this second line that sets up a hard flick to the left if I continue my roll to near or at WOT. For throttle, the answers were all over the place but the most common one was "just maintenance throttle between the corners of the chicane".

Oh...correct. I haven't taken any of the levels yet. VIR is the closest this year per the schedule. Going to try to make it happen.

Wiggle,I know I am tight on the bars because the next turn is so close. SR..... for sure. I am working to get a handle on that but not sure what I should be doing bp wise to keep the bike stable over the crest. My preference is to keep the wheels on the ground, hence the upshift before the crest to get me to the bottom of the powerband and still carry speed. If I carry the speed, both wheels still lift off, so I humping the tank and gripping really hard with my legs makes it feels better. Just seems wrong you know....

Thanks for your response guys. Sorry, I was somewhat unclear. The chicane is a right corner to left corner. There is about 700ft of straight before this chicane. As you can see, my entry into the chicane is trying to straighten the first part out. Turn in point is about mid track. While I don't have a problem with this line, the issue is transitioning into the second. I feel I can carry much more speed, in fact be WOT in 3rd gear. But the turn in for the left hander feels sluggish or like the bike doesn't want to turn. My current solution to get the smoothness I am looking for and an easy flick is to roll off a bit to initiate the turn, Then right back to the throttle. I loose drive if I roll off but if I roll to WOT it feels right (speed and drive), it's just hard to make the flick and thus... not smooth. Maybe enter the chicane with more speed (take a different line) so I can reach a neutral throttle to turn in?

I am loosing a ton of drive during a chicane that I feel I can take at or near WOT? What is the secret to getting the bike to "easily" flick over while under load? I have tried focus on knee to knee and hard countersteer and sometimes even pushing and pulling on the other bar at the same time? I get it over.... it just doesn't feel smooth. Ideas?

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I had a similar issue on a US track. "Mid-Ohio" turn 10a. I am riding on 06 R6 stock aside of -1 on the front sprock. I found my answer was to change my line alittle and upshift a gear before the crest. I tried all the other things; weighting the pegs, sitting up on the tank, staying back, a touch of rear brake and throttle rolls (on and off). Nothing worked better than just carrying more speed on approach and being in a higher gear. It took my R6 out of the strongest "torque" area of the powerband and stopped most of the insane lift offs. It still comes off the ground but out of speed rather than throttle + power and feels much better. Kinda fun actually but does take some getting used to. I have a question regarding this though. Should my BP remain the same? Turn 10b is only 200ft away from 10a, which makes it really hard to set up bp and a good line. Here is the video of the A group (no lift offs in this vid, sorry), cam is attached my helmet. The video starts in turn 9, a control rider is in front of me working with the rider in front of him, we take turn 10a (bridge), crest and you can see how close 10b is, then proceed to turn 11 where I get a bit of front lift off, you can see the front fall away. When no one is in front of me, I can lift both wheels over the crest. It's nothing like the "Mountain" but I don't wanna put it in the grass not making my 10b line. I get a quite a bit of head shake on the landing too. I need a damper and I am to tight on the bars. I presume an sr from approaching 10b very hot. What do you think?

Welcome!