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Vee Twin -vs- I-4


Jaybird180
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V Twins are the machine's of the God's. They are beset down to us mortals from the heavens so we can revel in their rumbling glory. They have the beating of IL4's in every respect, including cornering. See WSBK for further evidence......

One could argue that could be just "The Bayliss Factor".

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V Twins are the machine's of the God's. They are beset down to us mortals from the heavens so we can revel in their rumbling glory. They have the beating of IL4's in every respect, including cornering. See WSBK for further evidence......

One could argue that could be just "The Bayliss Factor".

 

 

One could, but one would be wrong : )

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Didn't the Ducs have to get a rise in capacity to 1200?

 

Ducati claims that the technology behind V-twins don't allow them to be competitive capacity for capacity without spending a HUGE amount of money. They had to do teardowns every race weekend. Reliability was a problem too. So the 1098 was developed and the WSBK homologation rules allowed a cylinder capacity increase for budgetary reasons.

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Didn't the Ducs have to get a rise in capacity to 1200?

 

Ducati claims that the technology behind V-twins don't allow them to be competitive capacity for capacity without spending a HUGE amount of money. They had to do teardowns every race weekend. Reliability was a problem too. So the 1098 was developed and the WSBK homologation rules allowed a cylinder capacity increase for budgetary reasons.

...which reinforces the notion that given equal displacement, an I4's will eat a V2 or an L2's lunch all day long. Even with the Bayliss factor, in '07 he couldn't compete with the 999 against the I4's from Japan.

When Ducati last raced in the USA ('05 I think), they could only win four SBK races. Eboz won at PPIR, Laguna and Mid-O (after Yates took himself and Mladin out exiting the key hole) and Hodgkins won in the rain at Road America.

Don't get me wrong, I love Ducati's and I own 2 but I don't drink my own liquor either...

Kevin

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You gotta love the Italian guys and their passion for racing (and just going fast I think).

 

Remember Cagiva, and how how they struggled for so long to get back on the box (well, Ducati now). Those guys are good for motorcycling in general.

 

And what might be a little known fact, but Keith is part Italian!

 

CF

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Just read the original post, and what bikes make better cornering/training machines: that could open it up a bit, as the best cornering bike, might not be the best training bike (at least for a broad spectrum of riders).

 

125 gp bike, I think they rule hte roost for outright cornering. I was astounded (and re-astounded) when we had the 125 GP bike school going for a while in the late 90's. Cornering speed--OMG!!!!

 

Get off one of those, and ride a 600 streetbike and you think you have gone from a nice sports car to a clunky 1-ton truck (yes, I said 1-ton). Pigs, huge, heavy, all fail to describe it accurately.

 

If you ever get a chance to ride a 125, do it, it's amazing. And I saw some big guys get on those little bikes.

 

CF

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this link should help answer the question!

 

http://www.cycleworld.com/article.asp?sect...;article_id=861

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I believe the topic was training/cornering machine. The second post narrows it to v2 vs i4.

 

The answer to that query is v2 because it is typically lighter, so will corner faster. And, as a training machine, it has more tractable power in a larger band allowing one to focus more on riding with less focus on shifting or high-siding. Another benefit is less maintenance cost for half the cylinders.

 

That said, I've never owned one and the idea of buying an EX500 over an FZR400 for a first track/race bike was laughable to my mind back in 1989.

 

But that's me. I wanted to win. Go figure. :)

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I believe the topic was training/cornering machine. The second post narrows it to v2 vs i4.

 

The answer to that query is v2 because it is typically lighter, so will corner faster. And, as a training machine has more tractable power in a larger band allowing one to focus more on riding with less focus on shifting or high-siding. Another benefit is less maintenance cost for half the cylinders.

 

That said, I've never owned one and the idea of buying an EX500 over an FZR400 for a first track/race bike was laughable to my mind back in 1989.

 

But that's me. I wanted to win. Go figure.

 

 

Hi racer

I only posted the link to the master bike article because those are the bikes us mere mortals can go into a shop and buy, all to often world super bikes, AMA, or British super bikes get brought into conversations but the bikes in the championships are the equivalent of the standard road bike with 100 grand thrown at it, then a world class pro racer to ride it!

 

Going back on topic, by training/cornering bike do you mean for complete beginners or for everyone?

As for beginners I have been told that Suzuki SV 650s are really good for building confidence!

The bike that has claimed awards for years for being the fastest cornering road bike is the Aprilia RSV1000R factory! Note that is the factory version and comes as standard with Ohlins suspension all round and every unsprung weight saver possible such as lightweight marchesini wheels among others which all contribute to it being a good cornering bike!

unfortunately none of the other manufacturer's seem to bring out higher spec bikes like aprilia, except Ducati!

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Just had a conversation over the parts counter with a guy racing an SV650. I hear lots of good things about it. Today's equivalent to the EX500 of 15 years ago, I suppose. But a whole lot better. I'm going to say it's good for beginners and more advanced riders for different reasons. But, yeah, they corner well. Build em up and you have a Ducati 750 killer!

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Just read the original post, and what bikes make better cornering/training machines: that could open it up a bit, as the best cornering bike, might not be the best training bike (at least for a broad spectrum of riders).

 

125 gp bike, I think they rule hte roost for outright cornering. I was astounded (and re-astounded) when we had the 125 GP bike school going for a while in the late 90's. Cornering speed--OMG!!!!

 

Get off one of those, and ride a 600 streetbike and you think you have gone from a nice sports car to a clunky 1-ton truck (yes, I said 1-ton). Pigs, huge, heavy, all fail to describe it accurately.

 

If you ever get a chance to ride a 125, do it, it's amazing. And I saw some big guys get on those little bikes.

 

CF

I saw this on the Roadracing World website about the Aprilia RS125: http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=34689

 

Should we be telling Santa to bring one!?

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Wow! Talk about the ultimate stocking stuffer!

 

A couple of questions though:

 

1. The article calls it a "track-only" bike; but, it's obviously a street bike with mirrors, turn signals, DOT treaded tires and kickstand. Did I miss something? Are there two models?

 

2. As a hardcore racer, I'd like to see a tech spec sheet including bhp and weight figures, as well as maintenance schedules, ie. how often will the piston/rings and crankshaft need replacing, for starters. That said, for a beginning racer or track day enthusiast, a two-stroke track bike that doesn't require weekly rebuilds like a true factory RR GP bike is a major bonus. The best of both worlds, so to speak.

 

3. What sort of hop-up/kit parts are available? Lightweight, low-cost fiberglass race bodywork? Is the cylinder plated? Is there an exhaust power valve? A ram-air pressurized air-box? Cassette transmission? Optional tranny gear sets?

 

I'd love to get my hands on one and modify the heck out of it with the tricks I learned racing factory RR two-stroke GP bikes. You know, let my black art skills out of my black bag for a walk around the block on a reed valve Aprilia. Aren't the factory Aprilia RR GP racers disc valve induction?

 

I think this would be a perfect entry level starter GP bike for anyone wanting to go racing or track riding. Probably without all the time consuming maintenance and tuning skills required for a true factory RR GP bike that are such a distraction and obstacle for new track riders/racers who need to focus on riding, not wrenching. And, it has a balancer shaft and automatic oil mixing! I love two strokes and would never race anything else... except perhaps for endurance racing. But, I probably would not buy one to race unless they were offering a spec class with big purses. That said, I'd love to check one out. I think it would make a perfect low cost track day trainer.

 

r

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Wow! Talk about the ultimate stocking stuffer!

 

1. The article calls it a "track-only" bike; but, it's obviously a street bike with mirrors, turn signals, DOT treaded tires and kickstand. Did I miss something? Are there two models?

I wondered the same thing. Do you have to sell it street legal so if someone buys it and drives it home it has the proper items? I do wish manufacturers would make it easier to convert bikes for track use- they are sort of close but not quite there. For example, I wish the whole tail section (brake lights, turn signal, license plate holder and light) could come off cleanly with a few screws and one connector. The same for the front- four bolts and one connector would remove the front plastic with headlights, mirrors and turn signals (with a jumper in the connector so the ECU knows it's in race mode...). Then you just put on a race plastic front in its place; the manufacturer could sell it for a few bucks with the same paint etc. I think they should do this if they are going to call sportbikes "Race Ready"! I just don't like the current state of taping, pulling certain fuses (even the fuses aren't grouped right for track use), pulling bulbs and so on. It's not that I'm technically incompetent, it's just at this point I'd rather focus on riding than wrenching as you said.

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If these figures are correct, it's a bummer:

 

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/09july08_aprilia_rs125.htm

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aprilia_RS_125

 

http://www.aprilia.com/assets/450/brochure-rs-125-eng.pdf

 

OK, so there are definitely two different versions. The street bike weighs 295 lbs and the track bike weighs 264 lbs. And there is an available hop-up kit that includes a power valve, racing expansion chamber (probably a more narrow powerband), and power jet carb kit to go with!

 

Well, the stock street bike weighs 295 lbs and makes 30 bhp. Ugh! A stock 250 Ninja weighs 330 lbs and makes 38 bhp. That gives the stock Ninja a significant power to weight ratio advantage over the street Aprilia.

 

The "track-day" bike weighs 264 lbs and makes, um... guessing, maybe 40? bhp, horsepower with the hop up kit? The 250 Ninja in race trim probably tips the scales at something < 300 lbs and probably hops up to about 45 bhp with a pipe & jet kit and maybe a hot cam. Assuming my guesstimates are correct, that makes the power to weight ratios about the same. So, the Aprilia may run smooth, eliminate oil pre-mixing and corner a tad faster with ~ 30 lbs less weight; but, the Ninja will have a wider powerband and probably more top speed to boot!

 

But, neither bike is anywhere near a real 125GP roadracer which is a whole 'nother world.

 

For comparison: a stock 1998 HRC factory RS125RR weighed 149 lbs and made about 43 bhp in stock trim. My 1996 HRC RS125RR with pressurized ram-airbox, A-kit cylinder, variable volume head, 250 spark plug, stuffed cases, modified reed block and D-bore modified stock powerjet carb made about 51 bhp running on 115 octane leaded race fuel. And, the HRC factory team WGP 125's with unobtainium factory kit pipe, adjustable powerjet carb and adjustable CDI igniter box were making about 53 bhp... ten years ago. With the new power valve system added in '04, they are probably making over 55 bhp today and lighter still with Ti bits and fasteners, Marchesini wheels, etc. Maybe ~139 lbs?

 

That's 155 lbs lighter and 25 bhp more power than a street Aprilia RS125. Or, in simple terms, less than half the weight and almost double the horsepower of the street Aprilia RS125. FWIW, my HRC RS125RR would motor a stock 600 with me at race weight (125 lbs) and roll-up power wheelies coming onto the front straight at Laguna Seca! :blink:

 

OK, so, what are you really getting for your money? Nothing even close to a real 125GP roadracer, that's for sure. Assuming my power guesstimates are close, the Aprilia "track day" RS125 with hop-up kit is roughly comparable to a 250 Ninja in race trim. At $1500 more for the street version Aprilia. Who knows how much for the "track day" version? And, probably another $2000 for the hop-up kit. That's at least $7500, probably more, for a bike that might be equal to a 250 Ninja. The '09 250 Ninja MSRP is ~ $4000. Lose the street parts, add a pipe w/jet kit, maybe a cam and you have a seriously fun track day trainer that at least rivals the kitted "track day" Aprilia RS125 for under $5000.

 

I don't know about you, but, I'm leaning heavily toward the 250 Ninja. In fact, I've been thinking about getting a used one for a little low budget "track day" fun.

 

racer

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Back on the original topic, does anyone have experience with Triumph's 3 cylinder bikes? It's supposed to have benefits of the V twin and I4. I see some of the bikes in WSBK supersport I think but not placing real high. The Street Triple R had a nice write-up in the new Sport Rider. I saw a Speed Triple with the Arrow 3 to 1 exhaust and it was a pretty nice looking bike (to me), maybe a good bike for riding twisties.

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Jaybird, I think it comes down to two things. Preference and money. The one you like more would obviously be the better one to train on, and do you have the money to risk laying your V2 down?

 

And the street triple is the most overpriced bike I've seen. They ripped the power from it, gave it an awkward seat position, took off the fairings, removed the adjustable front suspension, and knocked whopping $1000 off the price of the Daytona.

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Jaybird, I think it comes down to two things. Preference and money. The one you like more would obviously be the better one to train on, and do you have the money to risk laying your V2 down?

 

Hey guys,

 

While "personal preference" is a valid criteria if based upon handling characteristics that inspire confidence, "because it looks cool" or "because it's bigger and I want to go faster" aren't.

 

It is widely held as "common knowledge" among the racing community that, unless you are talking about a big bore Ducati or Aprilia which would be a poor choice for a training bike in any case, twin's are the smart choice for novice track riders. They are less expensive to purchase and maintain. Are lighter, so have easier, more confidence inspiring handling characteristics than inline fours. And, typically, have a wider power band and relatively flat torque curve leading to less gear shifting and friendlier power delivery. Hence, less chance of highsiding when rolling on the gas. This is known as "tractability". http://dictionary.weather.net/dictionary/tractable

 

That said, when I bought my first race bike, an inline four, I chose a lightweight small bore machine (FZR400) which offered the same characterisitics, ie. light weight, easy handling and friendly power delivery, so, low chance of a high side.

 

Tractable power and light weight handling that inspires confidence are the top criteria for choosing a "trainer" for a novice track rider.

 

racer

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Back on the original topic, does anyone have experience with Triumph's 3 cylinder bikes? It's supposed to have benefits of the V twin and I4. I see some of the bikes in WSBK supersport I think but not placing real high. The Street Triple R had a nice write-up in the new Sport Rider. I saw a Speed Triple with the Arrow 3 to 1 exhaust and it was a pretty nice looking bike (to me), maybe a good bike for riding twisties.

 

My engine builder/machinist, Joe DiStefano, who used to build superbikes for Fast by Feracci Ducati, is a national service/dealership rep for Triumph/Bennelli and I had a chance to check out the Tornado 1130 Tre he brought by the shop today. All I can say is WOW!!! Aside from the 160 crank bhp, dry clutch (that's a slipper dry clutch) and the rear mounted radiator with rear mounted fans that allows the three cylinder motor to be canted forward about 15 degrees and pushed so far forward in the frame that the header pipes have to be bent backwards to clear the front wheel.... that helps move the center of gravity WAY down and create a 50/50 weight balance (f/r) .... it feels and handles like a 600 dream at 460+ lbs. It puts down 135 bhp at the rear wheel and will loft the front wheel effortlessly. Anyone have about $18,000 USD to spend on a track day bike? It's totally worth it.

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Back on the original topic, does anyone have experience with Triumph's 3 cylinder bikes? It's supposed to have benefits of the V twin and I4. I see some of the bikes in WSBK supersport I think but not placing real high. The Street Triple R had a nice write-up in the new Sport Rider. I saw a Speed Triple with the Arrow 3 to 1 exhaust and it was a pretty nice looking bike (to me), maybe a good bike for riding twisties.

 

My engine builder/machinist, Joe DiStefano, who used to build superbikes for Fast by Feracci Ducati, is a national service/dealership rep for Triumph/Bennelli and I had a chance to check out the Tornado 1130 Tre he brought by the shop today. All I can say is WOW!!! Aside from the 160 crank bhp, dry clutch (that's a slipper dry clutch) and the rear mounted radiator with rear mounted fans that allows the three cylinder motor to be canted forward about 15 degrees and pushed so far forward in the frame that the header pipes have to be bent backwards to clear the front wheel.... that helps move the center of gravity WAY down and create a 50/50 weight balance (f/r) .... it feels and handles like a 600 dream at 450+ lbs. It puts down 135 bhp at the rear wheel and will loft the front wheel effortlessly. Anyone have about $18,000 USD to spend on a track day bike? It's totally worth it.

I hear good things about the Triumph 675 as well.

 

Kevin

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Anyone have about $18,000 USD to spend on a track day bike? It's totally worth it.

Embarrassing to say, but I don't have $18,000 for a track bike!

 

But what's a good way or strategy to find a good track bike, used? Ebay? Local dealers? I suppose all of the above is a good answer of course.

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You guys are overlooking a great beginners bike, the Buell 1125R. Lots of torque and enough HP to be exciting. I can stay with the 1098's on a straight. Handles great. The '08s are as low as <$10K now with easy financing. Of course I have one that is used only on the track. My first race, last week, I was in the Beginner class. One of the more experienced guys on a 600 pulled up next to me on the short straight. I looked over at him, down shifted and pulled away. The bike is a lot better than me, but it also takes care of me. My biggest challenge so far is throttle control. The track I visit, Arroyo Seco, is very technical. It's easy to spin the tire with too much throttle. That is my only problem. Although I did get a GPR damper, you could go without it.

 

I better comment on the early problems they had with the 1125. All bikes now are delivered with all recalls done. The only other issue is to buy an intake solenoid replacement piece for $6.00.

 

Oh yah, I've also learned not to up shift with the clutch cause that makes the front come off the ground. The trans is so smooth.

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