What Is Needed To Make A Rider Better/faster?

[Cobie Fair]

That will put you "miles" ahead of most street riders. Just be careful of creeping street habits onto the track and vice-versa. TC Rule #1 becomes less important at street speeds, which is why it get's violated so often.

 

Yeah, you can get away with it (bad TC) most of the time street riding, so it doesn't force one to take another way. Might be one reason that all those dirt track kids turned into such good road-racers. I'd really like Nicky to do well on that Duc. Didn't I read recently that he said after he rode it that whatever they were paying Casey, they should double it?

[Jaybird180]

That will put you "miles" ahead of most street riders. Just be careful of creeping street habits onto the track and vice-versa. TC Rule #1 becomes less important at street speeds, which is why it get's violated so often.

 

Yeah, you can get away with it (bad TC) most of the time street riding, so it doesn't force one to take another way. Might be one reason that all those dirt track kids turned into such good road-racers. I'd really like Nicky to do well on that Duc. Didn't I read recently that he said after he rode it that whatever they were paying Casey, they should double it?

I thought I read that he (Nicky) was on top of the time charts.

[hubbard_28]

We here this pretty often--some find they can practice the techniques, some find it hard. Jaybird mentioned mindsets, so that might be a clue to what he's talking about, and maybe we could seperate that from straight technique.

 

Ace brought up exact technique, and listed specific ones. Aside from hanging off (where in some places they consider that "exibition of speed") what techniques could NOT be practiced.

 

What do you guys think on this?

 

CF

Specific track riding techniques can't properly be practiced. Lining up passes, accelerate out of an apex, apexing with paint, gravel, and dirt obstacles. I can't work specifically on BP, getting used to asphalt/ hard part clearance, and get comfortable leaning over with all the potential things that can happen if I have to straighten the bike out and go off the road. Late braking is out as well.

[acebobby]

That will put you "miles" ahead of most street riders. Just be careful of creeping street habits onto the track and vice-versa. TC Rule #1 becomes less important at street speeds, which is why it get's violated so often.

 

Yeah, you can get away with it (bad TC) most of the time street riding, so it doesn't force one to take another way. Might be one reason that all those dirt track kids turned into such good road-racers. I'd really like Nicky to do well on that Duc. Didn't I read recently that he said after he rode it that whatever they were paying Casey, they should double it?

I thought I read that he (Nicky) was on top of the time charts.

 

He did say they should double casey's wages because the bike is an animal, he was fastest in the wet test and came 6th in the dry, looking good so far!

[acebobby]

Here,s a funny thing that happens to me, I am a fast road rider but not such a fast track rider, that is probably down to lack of experience but the strange thing is, I like tracks like the nurburgring where it is surrounded by wallls, trees, and fences (more like a road with no speed limits), but am not so keen when I get on a track with lots of run off area, I think this could be down to a major lack of RP's.

[Cobie Fair]

Here,s a funny thing that happens to me, I am a fast road rider but not such a fast track rider, that is probably down to lack of experience but the strange thing is, I like tracks like the nurburgring where it is surrounded by wallls, trees, and fences (more like a road with no speed limits), but am not so keen when I get on a track with lots of run off area, I think this could be down to a major lack of RP's.

 

Ace,

 

That's a good point, and the first time I tihnk it has been brought up. Reference points is something we have to work with riders on a lot. We went to one track in Illinois that had just been pave, it was very new. Part of the track was down a dragstrip porting, and there was not much to look at, particularly entering the turn off the drag strip. We put a cone up on the wall to help with this.

 

But, most of the time we are taking cones out of turns and such (left by other schools) as they don't have them in a race, and aside from the very rare exception above, there is always stuff to look at.

 

CF

[Hotfoot]

So what does it take?

 

Like to hear what you guys think on this (especially the newer members and lurkers too).

 

Best,

CF

 

Let's see, the tire guy says I need race tires and tire warmers. The suspension guy says I need an Ohlins suspension. The fuel guy says I need race gas, my mechanic says I need more horsepower, my riding buddies say I need more track time, and I think I need more school days.

 

So, it looks like to me what it takes is... MONEY!!

[stuman]

What does it take?

 

 

A concentrated effort to improve.

[Cobie Fair]

Let's narrow it down to racing for the sake of argument, at or near the top level, say top riders in the US. Some guys make it to the top, and others make it close. Some guys look like they have it all, and will go all the way, become world champs.

 

I think there is an ability to adapt, to evaluate information that is a key component. I remember watching James Toseland after we had trained him, and he was still running a very low entry line. This uses a lot of lean angle, and stalls the rider on the gas. He changed it later in his career. Keith told me once that he watched Kevin Schwantz change his line in a race at Laguna after Wayne beat him in that section.

 

Do you guys have other examples of this that you have observed? (After this, I want to look at the same thing with lower level riders--amateur racers, track day riders, etc.)

 

C

[spthomas]

Let's narrow it down to racing for the sake of argument, at or near the top level, say top riders in the US. Some guys make it to the top, and others make it close. Some guys look like they have it all, and will go all the way, become world champs.

 

I think there is an ability to adapt, to evaluate information that is a key component. I remember watching James Toseland after we had trained him, and he was still running a very low entry line. This uses a lot of lean angle, and stalls the rider on the gas. He changed it later in his career. Keith told me once that he watched Kevin Schwantz change his line in a race at Laguna after Wayne beat him in that section.

 

Do you guys have other examples of this that you have observed? (After this, I want to look at the same thing with lower level riders--amateur racers, track day riders, etc.)

 

C

I can't comment on top level racers and how they got there. I do try to pay attention to my own learning though, it's something I'm interested in because I wasn't a very good student in high school but did really well in college. What I found works for me is to have both a mental understanding of what I'm trying to do as well as physical experience and the ability to tie the two together. It's not all book learning and it's not only experience, it's both together and being able to fluently switch back and forth. Sort of like being bilingual. My most productive track days are ones where after each session we'd talk about it while the experience was fresh, and then go back out again and try to apply what we talked about. The problem I have now is I've caught up with my riding buddies and I need to have track days with guys who are even better riders that I can follow, or have follow me and then exchange pointers, good traits, bad habits, etc. Getting a lot of riding in that environment I think would help make anyone a better and faster rider.

[Cobie Fair]

I can't comment on top level racers and how they got there. I do try to pay attention to my own learning though, it's something I'm interested in because I wasn't a very good student in high school but did really well in college. What I found works for me is to have both a mental understanding of what I'm trying to do as well as physical experience and the ability to tie the two together. It's not all book learning and it's not only experience, it's both together and being able to fluently switch back and forth. Sort of like being bilingual. My most productive track days are ones where after each session we'd talk about it while the experience was fresh, and then go back out again and try to apply what we talked about. The problem I have now is I've caught up with my riding buddies and I need to have track days with guys who are even better riders that I can follow, or have follow me and then exchange pointers, good traits, bad habits, etc. Getting a lot of riding in that environment I think would help make anyone a better and faster rider.

 

Doing both the practical part (riding) and having some theory to back it up, for sure a good approach. I don't think there is anyone in any field that has achieved any significant level w/out having both there, and a very good point.

 

Some rely heaving on just one or the other: lots of theory, or just lots of riding. Either alone won't get one all the way.

[stuman]

I have a hard time with the question in the original post.

 

I think a rider can get a lot better without getting faster.

 

Sometimes faster is just a matter of commitment.

[Cobie Fair]

I have a hard time with the question in the original post.

 

I think a rider can get a lot better without getting faster.

 

Sometimes faster is just a matter of commitment.

 

So what do you think the question should be?

[Tgriff1222]

I think the elite riders have intangibles that seperate them from everyone else. I was reading an article in RRW about Rossi going 199 mph through the speed trap, reach over and adjust his brake lever, then pass Edwards and Nakano in the corner. He obviously sees things differently than everyone else.

[Cobie Fair]

I think the elite riders have intangibles that seperate them from everyone else. I was reading an article in RRW about Rossi going 199 mph through the speed trap, reach over and adjust his brake lever, then pass Edwards and Nakano in the corner. He obviously sees things differently than everyone else.

 

I'm sure I could sound like a broken record on this type of point, but I'm just self confident enough (I didn't say arrogant:)), that this is what I think Keith has done--break the "intangibles" down into bite size pieces. That might not mean one could do those things as well, but could understand what the elite are doing, and practice/master it

[acebobby]

I think the elite riders have intangibles that seperate them from everyone else. I was reading an article in RRW about Rossi going 199 mph through the speed trap, reach over and adjust his brake lever, then pass Edwards and Nakano in the corner. He obviously sees things differently than everyone else.

 

I'm sure I could sound like a broken record on this type of point, but I'm just self confident enough (I didn't say arrogant:)), that this is what I think Keith has done--break the "intangibles" down into bite size pieces. That might not mean one could do those things as well, but could understand what the elite are doing, and practice/master it

 

totally agree 100%!

 

as for Rossi adjusting his brake lever at 199 mph is not that big a deal, if a racer finds a setting that needs adjusting during a race or even a trackday guy the obvious place to make adjustments is on the straight when his hands are free to do other things!