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Sense Of Traction


Cobie Fair
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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

 

 

This is my ultimate goal, understanding where the limits of traction are in different conditions! I do get a bit nervous with it sometimes, mostly in the wet but to have the abbility to ride right on the edge of traction in any condition is what I am aiming for!

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

 

 

This is my ultimate goal, understanding where the limits of traction are in different conditions! I do get a bit nervous with it sometimes, mostly in the wet but to have the abbility to ride right on the edge of traction in any condition is what I am aiming for!

 

We really got this tested this last few days, and I for one was so glad to know and use what Keith has been training. It was common to slide in the wet. Traction was consistent, so easy to test this, if your technique was solid.

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This was something I'd previously thought about. The other day however I was reading T2 where Keith recommends a solid foundation in the basics then playing around with traction.

 

Based on that I'd decided to put it aside until after my L1/L2 AT LEAST.

 

Otherwise I'd say it depends on how I'm feeling that day.

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This was something I'd previously thought about. The other day however I was reading T2 where Keith recommends a solid foundation in the basics then playing around with traction.

 

Based on that I'd decided to put it aside until after my L1/L2 AT LEAST.

 

Otherwise I'd say it depends on how I'm feeling that day.

 

Its with the key fundamentals solidly in, that this is not that hard to do. Can take a little patience and a little self discipline, but really pays off in the end.

 

One thing that we hear a lot, is that a number of the coaches don't hang off that much. Some are bowled over when they ride with a coach that isn't hanging off, and at what is possible. Hanging off can create a number of problems (create more than it solves), at a track like Streets of Willow. The whole top section--turn 4 to 8--is one turn leading into another, and that will press the best of riders. Add hanging off, and some have to just slow down, until the fundamentals of hanging off are mastered all the way.

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

 

 

This is my ultimate goal, understanding where the limits of traction are in different conditions! I do get a bit nervous with it sometimes, mostly in the wet but to have the abbility to ride right on the edge of traction in any condition is what I am aiming for!

 

 

I have to agree 100 percent with you Acebobby, this is one of the main goals I want to have down solid as well.

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I don't know the limits in the rain. I commute in it, but it's going slow and giving space.

I know how well I can corner, and I know my limits. I'm nowhere NEAR the bikes limits because I'm barely a middle of the pack rider. I can lean off my bike and get my knee down on corner after corner (I'm 6'2), but when I lean off the bike just to manage hard part scraping, it's one or two times a day that my knee scrapes. Barely. And I'm more consistent.

I have good feel for my tires coming lose. It also lets me know that if I'm just so far over and already losing traction, I really need to get to school.

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

 

 

This is my ultimate goal, understanding where the limits of traction are in different conditions! I do get a bit nervous with it sometimes, mostly in the wet but to have the abbility to ride right on the edge of traction in any condition is what I am aiming for!

 

We really got this tested this last few days, and I for one was so glad to know and use what Keith has been training. It was common to slide in the wet. Traction was consistent, so easy to test this, if your technique was solid.

 

 

Is sliding in the wet just the same as sliding in the dry only at lower speeds? This seems a tricky question to put into words but I once lowsided my bike in the wet and it blew my wet weather confidence and I think it may be in my head that losing traction in the wet equals being out of control!

Is the band of traction wider in the dry than the wet or does it just happen at higher speeds, I hope this makes sense!

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I feel my sense of rear traction is pretty good. I have a good feel for when the tire is hooked up and when it starts to slide.

 

My feel for the front is something I would like to improve. I have a hard time really pushing the front the way I can with the rear. Front slides always seem to come by surprise and that is unnerving to me. I can push the front around pretty well in the dirt but I lack the ability to do that on pavement.

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I do OK with this in the rain. There is more force in the dry, and I recently found some body position issues that were contributing, it'll make pushing the limit in the dry easier.

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One thing that we hear a lot, is that a number of the coaches don't hang off that much. Some are bowled over when they ride with a coach that isn't hanging off, and at what is possible. Hanging off can create a number of problems (create more than it solves), at a track like Streets of Willow. The whole top section--turn 4 to 8--is one turn leading into another, and that will press the best of riders. Add hanging off, and some have to just slow down, until the fundamentals of hanging off are mastered all the way.

I'm wondering if hanging off can be a "pre-emptive" SR?

 

In the case above, the student is hanging off when not necessary, probably because he THINKS traction may be at a premium. As a coach, how do you deal with this? As a rider, how do you deal with this in your own rider if you notice yourself doing it when not necessary? (LOL Comfort hanging off)

 

BTW, These questions are posed to anyone on the forum, not Cobie exclusively.

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One thing that we hear a lot, is that a number of the coaches don't hang off that much. Some are bowled over when they ride with a coach that isn't hanging off, and at what is possible. Hanging off can create a number of problems (create more than it solves), at a track like Streets of Willow. The whole top section--turn 4 to 8--is one turn leading into another, and that will press the best of riders. Add hanging off, and some have to just slow down, until the fundamentals of hanging off are mastered all the way.

I'm wondering if hanging off can be a "pre-emptive" SR?

 

In the case above, the student is hanging off when not necessary, probably because he THINKS traction may be at a premium. As a coach, how do you deal with this? As a rider, how do you deal with this in your own rider if you notice yourself doing it when not necessary? (LOL Comfort hanging off)

 

BTW, These questions are posed to anyone on the forum, not Cobie exclusively.

 

I think that firstly a student will hang off when unnecessary but is practicing correct body position and when their pace picks up they are already doing it correctly whereas an instructor that knows the track very well will ride normally because they know they can get away with it as a full day of hanging off riding style would be very tiring, when an instructor gets a student that is fast enough I bet you would see their riding style change to suit!

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I think that firstly a student will hang off when unnecessary but is practicing correct body position and when their pace picks up they are already doing it correctly whereas an instructor that knows the track very well will ride normally because they know they can get away with it as a full day of hanging off riding style would be very tiring, when an instructor gets a student that is fast enough I bet you would see their riding style change to suit!

 

Some students really do want to hang off, for whatever reason. Ultimately one can go faster doing it, but with really sound tecnhique. one can go very fast w/out having to. In some cases, like Streets of Willow Springs, turns 2-8, it is one turn after another, relentlessly. If the rider is hanging off in there, it is a lot more work, and it'll make the the other skills more complicated to execute. Often those other skills are more important to a good run through there. For example, if a rider is hanging off, but doesn't have his body position completely sorted out, so he is not fighting the bike at all in the turns, then hanging off creates handling problems. It's the rare rider that shows up at the school and already has the body position thing sorted out.

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

 

I'm definitely nervous on this point; my mid corner traction usually feels great, but at turn-in, it always seems to me like the front tire is either OK, or suddenly gone, with nothing in between. I have had a few front tire slips (but no crashes) on cold tires or over rough pavement and they feel abrupt and sudden with no warning. Is that normal? Someone mentioned sliding the front, and to me this seems nearly impossible, does that indicate a problem with my technique or bike setup?

 

For the rear tire when I drive hard out of a turn, still leaned over some, I sometimes feel the tire squirm around. Is that the step before a smooth controlled slide (have never done one of those on fresh tires) or a warning that I am flirting with a high side? Currently I take it as a warning and don't try to push beyond. I have only felt a smooth, controlled spin of the rear tire on really worn out tires, that was fun and pretty easy to control, but it progressed very smoothly and did not go through that squirm stage.

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I'm definitely nervous on this point; my mid corner traction usually feels great, but at turn-in, it always seems to me like the front tire is either OK, or suddenly gone, with nothing in between. I have had a few front tire slips (but no crashes) on cold tires or over rough pavement and they feel abrupt and sudden with no warning. Is that normal? Someone mentioned sliding the front, and to me this seems nearly impossible, does that indicate a problem with my technique or bike setup?

 

For the rear tire when I drive hard out of a turn, still leaned over some, I sometimes feel the tire squirm around. Is that the step before a smooth controlled slide (have never done one of those on fresh tires) or a warning that I am flirting with a high side? Currently I take it as a warning and don't try to push beyond. I have only felt a smooth, controlled spin of the rear tire on really worn out tires, that was fun and pretty easy to control, but it progressed very smoothly and did not go through that squirm stage.

 

In Keith's article (Bands of Traction) he covers it. I'm gonna be mean (or iis that just lazy) and make you go find it :ph34r: OK, it's also in a recent MOTORCYCLIST mag, not sure what month.

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It was only toward the end of this last year that I started to get somewhat comfortable with the traction at the rear of the bike. That is to say, I got to where I knew at certain corners I could get a little slide on the exit and I could roll with it and not lose any attention to it (thanks to James Toohey for his help on this one). I haven't really gotten comfortable with the front end traction yet. I've felt the edge a few times and it wasn't at all comfortable for me. A few good rain days with the school definitely helped me get much closer to that, but I know that my technique isn't quite good enough for me to hang out on the edge like some of the other guys do, so I'm just going to have to work on that for a few more years.

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I know...I just mean getting close to the limit. I've been in situations where I could feel it getting close and that's about enough for me. I know there are those who are comfortable riding that edge and maybe pushing the front a bit and I'm just saying I'm not one of them. I prefer to have a significantly bigger cushion than some of the other guys. Guess that's why they're so much faster :) I should have made a more clear delineation between a small slide being where I was getting comfortable with traction at the back, and just feeling the approaching limits with the front end.

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I have a question regarding traction. I can get over on the bike pretty well without using tire warmers, and there are a few regulars who also go out without using tire warmers. Sunday while we were at the track, one of those riders tucked her front. Another rider said that she was trying to go too fast without tire warmers. It was well into the session, and it was a fairly warm day, so her tires were warmed up. So the questions is; without tire warmers, can we get the tires warmed up enough to do really good laptimes, or are we at different limits than people who do use tire warmers?

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I have a question regarding traction. I can get over on the bike pretty well without using tire warmers, and there are a few regulars who also go out without using tire warmers. Sunday while we were at the track, one of those riders tucked her front. Another rider said that she was trying to go too fast without tire warmers. It was well into the session, and it was a fairly warm day, so her tires were warmed up. So the questions is; without tire warmers, can we get the tires warmed up enough to do really good laptimes, or are we at different limits than people who do use tire warmers?

Warmers can be an interesting thing; helpful if you know how to use them and deceptive if you don't.

 

The warmer gets the tires to a temperature that should be ready to ride on, to reduce 1st lap cold tire crashes. However, that temperature is a bit below what a good rider can experience the tire working in it's designed temperature range. If you go slower, then the tire cools. If the rider is too slow or the track too cool then you can actually get them below the warmer's temperature. Hence the false sense of security they often provide.

 

Someone suggesting that the cause of her crash is the lack of warmers is an indication of the person likely not looking deep enough to discover the cause of her crash.

 

If this rider is fairly consistent and her laps were getting consistently quicker, then I would suggest eliminating tire temperature as the culprit.

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I have a question regarding traction. I can get over on the bike pretty well without using tire warmers, and there are a few regulars who also go out without using tire warmers. Sunday while we were at the track, one of those riders tucked her front. Another rider said that she was trying to go too fast without tire warmers. It was well into the session, and it was a fairly warm day, so her tires were warmed up. So the questions is; without tire warmers, can we get the tires warmed up enough to do really good laptimes, or are we at different limits than people who do use tire warmers?

Warmers can be an interesting thing; helpful if you know how to use them and deceptive if you don't.

 

The warmer gets the tires to a temperature that should be ready to ride on, to reduce 1st lap cold tire crashes. However, that temperature is a bit below what a good rider can experience the tire working in it's designed temperature range. If you go slower, then the tire cools. If the rider is too slow or the track too cool then you can actually get them below the warmer's temperature. Hence the false sense of security they often provide.

 

Someone suggesting that the cause of her crash is the lack of warmers is an indication of the person likely not looking deep enough to discover the cause of her crash.

 

If this rider is fairly consistent and her laps were getting consistently quicker, then I would suggest eliminating tire temperature as the culprit.

 

 

agreed!

If you cant ride at the temp the tyre warmers are set at your tyres will cool to the temp that you ride at normally!

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A little late on this thread, but here's my 2 cents.

 

The coaches don't have or use them at the school, and we have to get at or near max pace, sometimes every session (coaches ride 15 times a day). Last time I raced, I didn't have them and it was a cold morning (below freezing). For sure tires can be warmed up to temp w/out warmers.

 

For the rider that fell, if it was late in the session, then there must have been a big change for her to loose traction due to tire temp. Like she was riding quite slowly, then increased the speed dramatically in one turn. Would like to get more data on this, let's make sure she doesn't have the wrong reason she fell. I'll be happy to talk with her, or get her up here and we can go over it.

 

It's more likely there was another reason she lost the front, but ideally we'll get her up here and get some info first.

 

I'll be out for a few days, we are going to Sears Pt (still resist calling it Infineon), and back very late Tuesday.

 

Best,

Cobie

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For the rider that fell, if it was late in the session, then there must have been a big change for her to loose traction due to tire temp. Like she was riding quite slowly, then increased the speed dramatically in one turn.

That's exactly what I was thinking while I was reading the other guys posts. The thing that sold me on not NEEDING tire warmers is that your coaches can get up to speed without them. I'm still working on them, though. I take a lot of time getting my tires warmed up.

The thing with the rider, is that she has become very consistent very quickly. I'm thinking she just came in a little too hot. She wasn't able to explain it, other than:

"Really weird feeling though, I have never lowsided before.... only highsided. Like everything is going great and looking through the turn then all of a sudden... no more motorcycle under you!"

 

 

Thanks.

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

I hope this is not too far OT, but I had this topic in mind as I was doing this in my car yesterday in the wet.

 

I can confidently get the rear end to come around in the turns. I can also continuously feed power in sweepers until I get right on the edge of traction. It will get just out of line enough that I know it, but my passenger doesn't even know I'm playing this game, unless I hit a bump or slick spot and it goes, and then the electronic gadgetry takes over and limits my fun. I'd love to be this good (brave) on my bike.

 

I figure:

The typical car is about 2,500 lbs and has a rear traction footprint about 2.5X the size of a bike leaned over (2 wide tires vs 1). The way I figure, due to the weight and power, the motorcycle pilot should have more sensitivity and better control of traction. So how does one increase traction confidence?

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How good do you rate your own sense of traction, and for this thread, let's look at corerning traction (as opposed to just acceleration or stopping traction).

 

Can you tell where you are with the traction in different situations? Do you get nervous, or feel pretty confident with your sense of this?

 

Good artilce on Bands of Traction by KC in his corner, if you'd like to check that out.

C

I hope this is not too far OT, but I had this topic in mind as I was doing this in my car yesterday in the wet.

 

I can confidently get the rear end to come around in the turns. I can also continuously feed power in sweepers until I get right on the edge of traction. It will get just out of line enough that I know it, but my passenger doesn't even know I'm playing this game, unless I hit a bump or slick spot and it goes, and then the electronic gadgetry takes over and limits my fun. I'd love to be this good (brave) on my bike.

 

I figure:

The typical car is about 2,500 lbs and has a rear traction footprint about 2.5X the size of a bike leaned over (2 wide tires vs 1). The way I figure, due to the weight and power, the motorcycle pilot should have more sensitivity and better control of traction. So how does one increase traction confidence?

 

Is your car rear wheel drive? mine is front wheel drive so no good for drifting!

I think that the first step to increasing traction confidence on a bike is recognising all of the SRs, especially #1 and #2 and be confident that when the bike breaks traction you will not, no matter what give in to these SRs! Both these SRs will put you and your bike into a potential crash situation so by understanding the effects of SR #1 and #2 and being able to ride through the slide without giving in to them would, should increase traction confidence!

Do you agree?

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