Have A Question...

[donaudi]

Hi everyone, I have come to a dilemma. Call it a "riders block". I currently own two bikes. One is a 2006 Kawasaki 636 that's pretty much stock with Pirelli corsa III tires. The CBR1000rr is a 2008 model year and has Ohlins suspension and Michillen power race tires. Unfortunately we do not have a track here. We practice on a twisty road which leads up the volcano. With the 600 it was very easy to ride and I can go faster with it than the 1000. Shouldn't the more modern, sticky tire, nice suspension bike be faster?

 

My current issues is trying to figure out what the root cause of the problem is. Weheter it be the rider, the bike, the setup, etc. If I were able to tell if the rider, or bike is at falt I would know what to work on. What would the steps be to figure out the problem.

 

Here is the road were we practice on.

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m438/DO...rrunonboard.flv

 

Your guys help would be appreciated.

 

Here's a clip of me high siding on turn 2. Thought you guys get a kick out of it.

 

http://s334.photobucket.com/albums/m438/DO...theHIGHside.flv

[bellevuetlr]

both bikes should be fine and are capable of turning fast laps around a race track. i saw your video and first thing that came to mind is you need to get yourself off the street or else youll kill yourself. secondly, get some one on one instruction to help you out. it looked like you tucked the front of the bike. without knowing your set up and your riding habits, people can only make assumptions. hope this helps.

[donaudi]

I'm on the island of MAUI in Hawaii. Like I stated earlier that we have no track. I do plan on attending this school hopefully this year. I'm trying to "get the basics" down so when I do go for school I'll gain the most out of that experience. I'm not complaining about the high side. I lost the rear coming out of the corner. My dabble is trying to deduce what the reason for the 600 being faster. Did that make cents?

[Bpez]

I'm on the island of MAUI in Hawaii. Like I stated earlier that we have no track. I do plan on attending this school hopefully this year. I'm trying to "get the basics" down so when I do go for school I'll gain the most out of that experience. I'm not complaining about the high side. I lost the rear coming out of the corner. My dabble is trying to deduce what the reason for the 600 being faster. Did that make cents?

 

The 600 has less torque than the 1000 so you can keep it in the upper rpm's without fear of easily letting the rear loose. End result is usually faster cornerspeed. Compare it to dirt riding...you can be alot faster on a 250 vs. 500. Get the idea? Hope this helps!

Bob

[fossilfuel]

I saw you video on the 1000RR. Nice road! I am a little jealous that I can't get up in the morning and go for a a little country ride around Maui. Here are my thoughts.

 

1.) Country roads are a lot of fun...but it only takes the car you are meeting in the turn to be off, just a little while you are off, just a little.

 

2.) I saw your "High Side". What lane of traffic did your motorcycle end up in?

 

3.) The set up for street riding is a lot different than riding on the track.

a. Your chain is tighter

b. Your tires have more pressure

c. Your tires don't get up to temperature

d. If temperature you do get is lost quickly

e. The sag has probably never been set for your weight

 

4.) Get some instruction, personal on hand is preferred but if that is not available, search for articles and read the best available books on the subject.

 

5.) My observation of the first video, pre-crash is that you are not using your front brake into the corner. I don't see your forks compressing at all. So in effect, you are not putting any heat in your tire before you lean it into the corner.

 

6.) There are degrees in riding and the closer you get to pushing it the less room for error you have. We who ride on the track understand this. We take into consideration the hazards. We are prepared and adjust our suspensions and tire pressures for that limit.

 

7.) Check your equipment before you ride, chain tension, tire pressure, brakes and before you try to put a knee down in the corner make sure your tires are nice and hot.

 

8.) See #4.)

 

9.) The 1000rr is about 50 lbs heavier than the 636....More mass means harder to turn but you can make up for that by..........You need to learn more before you get to that lesson Grasshopper.

[Jaybird180]

I saw you video on the 1000RR. Nice road! I am a little jealous that I can't get up in the morning and go for a a little country ride around Maui. Here are my thoughts.

 

1.) Country roads are a lot of fun...but it only takes the car you are meeting in the turn to be off, just a little while you are off, just a little.

 

2.) I saw your "High Side". What lane of traffic did your motorcycle end up in?

 

3.) The set up for street riding is a lot different than riding on the track.

a. Your chain is tighter

b. Your tires have more pressure

c. Your tires don't get up to temperature

d. If temperature you do get is lost quickly

e. The sag has probably never been set for your weight

 

4.) Get some instruction, personal on hand is preferred but if that is not available, search for articles and read the best available books on the subject.

 

5.) My observation of the first video, pre-crash is that you are not using your front brake into the corner. I don't see your forks compressing at all. So in effect, you are not putting any heat in your tire before you lean it into the corner.

 

6.) There are degrees in riding and the closer you get to pushing it the less room for error you have. We who ride on the track understand this. We take into consideration the hazards. We are prepared and adjust our suspensions and tire pressures for that limit.

 

7.) Check your equipment before you ride, chain tension, tire pressure, brakes and before you try to put a knee down in the corner make sure your tires are nice and hot.

 

8.) See #4.)

 

9.) The 1000rr is about 50 lbs heavier than the 636....More mass means harder to turn but you can make up for that by..........You need to learn more before you get to that lesson Grasshopper.

 

 

Good Answer

[hubbard_28]

Watching the track you're on, I'd guess that you're not as comfortable on the 1000 at speed. It looks like fast corners. If they are indeed as fast as they look, then you're the reason you're faster on the 636.

[donaudi]

WoW, real great answers. That's probably the reason I posted the question here and nowhere else. Where do I start? Most of the corners are 45-60 mph turns. Yes, we do know the danger with racing on public roads. Unfortunately I am not in the position to store a bike on the mainland, and fly out for track days. I ask what you would do if you moved here.

 

Been riding motorcycles for about a year now. Have been racing cars for 10 years. I have read all of Keith's books and a ton of other riding books, Internet articles, etc. I'm soaking up all the info.

 

I should tell you guys that most of the time I ride at about 75%. I think that might have helped with the high side recovery. My bikes are set up for the type of riding we do. We have race chain slack, set sag, set suspension, race tire pressures, etc.

 

So the bikes them self play a role. So fossilfuel, I'm intrigued in what you were referring to by making up for it.

[fossilfuel]

WoW, real great answers. That's probably the reason I posted the question here and nowhere else. Where do I start? Most of the corners are 45-60 mph turns. Yes, we do know the danger with racing on public roads. Unfortunately I am not in the position to store a bike on the mainland, and fly out for track days. I ask what you would do if you moved here.

 

Been riding motorcycles for about a year now. Have been racing cars for 10 years. I have read all of Keith's books and a ton of other riding books, Internet articles, etc. I'm soaking up all the info.

 

I should tell you guys that most of the time I ride at about 75%. I think that might have helped with the high side recovery. My bikes are set up for the type of riding we do. We have race chain slack, set sag, set suspension, race tire pressures, etc.

 

So the bikes them self play a role. So fossilfuel, I'm intrigued in what you were referring to by making up for it.

 

At Miller, during the race practice...the top riders in the 1000cc class ran 1:48's. The top riders in the 600cc class ran 1:52's. Why?

[donaudi]

I'm going to shoot in the dark here. I think when you ride a 600 your more concerned about carrying "momentum". On a bigger bike your concentrating on getting the bike stopped, turned, and making sure that the "drive" off the corner is critical. Is this what you were referring to?

[Jaybird180]

WoW, real great answers. That's probably the reason I posted the question here and nowhere else. Where do I start? Most of the corners are 45-60 mph turns. Yes, we do know the danger with racing on public roads. Unfortunately I am not in the position to store a bike on the mainland, and fly out for track days. I ask what you would do if you moved here.

 

Been riding motorcycles for about a year now. Have been racing cars for 10 years. I have read all of Keith's books and a ton of other riding books, Internet articles, etc. I'm soaking up all the info.

 

I should tell you guys that most of the time I ride at about 75%. I think that might have helped with the high side recovery. My bikes are set up for the type of riding we do. We have race chain slack, set sag, set suspension, race tire pressures, etc.

 

So the bikes them self play a role. So fossilfuel, I'm intrigued in what you were referring to by making up for it.

 

At Miller, during the race practice...the top riders in the 1000cc class ran 1:48's. The top riders in the 600cc class ran 1:52's. Why?

 

It's a question of skill. MOST riders who are middle to fast club-level will do faster times on a 600 versus 1000. Only a small percentage of riders can exploit the power advantage that the extra 400cc provides. I'd imagine AMA top 15 or WSB/WSS level riders would be able to exploit that.

 

For example, take (what's his name....the guy who won Daytona Superbike a few years back....he got paralyzed...rode for M4 Emgo Suzuki...???)...anyhow one year he rode a 750 against a field of 1000's. If you look at his times, he was very competitive even with the HP disadvantage.

 

(what's his name....the guy who won Daytona Superbike a few years back....he got paralyzed...rode for M4 Emgo Suzuki

Vincent Haskovic

[Kevin Kane]

(what's his name....the guy who won Daytona Superbike a few years back....he got paralyzed...rode for M4 Emgo Suzuki

Vincent Haskovic

[fossilfuel]

Ok Guys,

I guess I was not good at making a point. I live in Hawaii and I have two motorcycles. One is a 2006 Kawaski 636 (108 hp), weight 402 lbs and I have a 2008 Honda CBR1000RR (160 hp), weight 432lbs with full Ohlins suspension. I have my favorite road to go down and I have been going down this road on the 636 faster than on the 1000. I have never been on a track and have had no on hand instruction. What is it going to take for me to go faster on the 1000 than the 636?

 

 

108hp/408lbs vs 160hp/432lbs

[donaudi]

Damn Fossilfuel, your in the same exact boat as me. Give me a call and I'll give you some pointers on the roads here in Hawaii.

 

On a more serious note... I guess the answer is a simple one. It's partly a machine design and partly a "inexperienced" rider.

 

I will try and see if I can get away from work later this year for school. One question I have for those who instruct or have attended this school. At which point should one attend school. I feel that I should not waste instructors time and mine if I don't have enough of the basics down. I do plan on riding with a friend who has taken most of the racing schools and has raced in the states before, for some pointers.

[fossilfuel]

Damn Fossilfuel, your in the same exact boat as me. Give me a call and I'll give you some pointers on the roads here in Hawaii.

 

On a more serious note... I guess the answer is a simple one. It's partly a machine design and partly a "inexperienced" rider.

 

I will try and see if I can get away from work later this year for school. One question I have for those who instruct or have attended this school. At which point should one attend school. I feel that I should not waste instructors time and mine if I don't have enough of the basics down. I do plan on riding with a friend who has taken most of the racing schools and has raced in the states before, for some pointers.

 

We probably ride that same road and don't know it! Is your CBR scratched up on the right side? Funny!

 

The point I was trying to make is basically to use the throttle more. You have 160hp at your disposal on a bike that only weighs 30 lbs more than your 636. I noticed in your video that you were not braking hard at all so get on the throttle between corners and learn to use the brake more.

[harnois]

The 636 is probably geared lower overall which makes up somewhat for the lower power, so the 0-60 or 0-100 capabilities of of the 2 bikes are perhaps not that much different. They are both limited by their need to keep the front wheel on the ground. However once you get to much higher speeds, say well over 120mph, more of the power goes into pushing you and the bike through the air. The 1000 will continue to accelerate beyond the top speed of the lower geared and lower powered 636. So the biggest difference between the 2 bikes is at very high speeds. At their top speeds the bikes are using almost all of their power just to counteract the wind resistance. Then consider that wind resistance I think is exponential, meaning it takes a lot of power just to get a little bit more top speed.

 

Secondly, in the turn where you can't use full throttle on either bike, it makes no difference.

 

So when you take those 2 things together it's easy to see why on most race tracks the difference between the times of the 600s and 1000s is not as much as most people would guess. They are leaned over most of the time and then the short spurts between tight turns there may not be that much difference in acceleration provided the guy on the 600 knows how to work the gears, but in the long straight the 1000 gets ahead by a few seconds.

 

It would take very little difference in your comfort level on the 2 bikes to counteract the advantage. And to take advantage of that 1000 on those public roads shown in your video, you would have to have some long straight stretches and have the balls to hold the throttle full open for long periods of time and get up to some speeds that would be seriously hair-raising on public roads.

[asinn0007]

Ok Guys,

I guess I was not good at making a point. I live in Hawaii and I have two motorcycles. One is a 2006 Kawaski 636 (108 hp), weight 402 lbs and I have a 2008 Honda CBR1000RR (160 hp), weight 432lbs with full Ohlins suspension. I have my favorite road to go down and I have been going down this road on the 636 faster than on the 1000. I have never been on a track and have had no on hand instruction. What is it going to take for me to go faster on the 1000 than the 636?

 

 

108hp/408lbs vs 160hp/432lbs

 

You're riding the 1000 on race tires, and it doesn't seem as though you're riding hard enough to get those tires hot enough to stick. To get the 1000 to go faster than the 636, you need to drive harder out of the corners and brake harder going in without disrupting the stability of the bike. Your turning speed will be slower on the heavier bike, all else being equal.

[asinn0007]

Damn Fossilfuel, your in the same exact boat as me. Give me a call and I'll give you some pointers on the roads here in Hawaii.

 

On a more serious note... I guess the answer is a simple one. It's partly a machine design and partly a "inexperienced" rider.

 

I will try and see if I can get away from work later this year for school. One question I have for those who instruct or have attended this school. At which point should one attend school. I feel that I should not waste instructors time and mine if I don't have enough of the basics down. I do plan on riding with a friend who has taken most of the racing schools and has raced in the states before, for some pointers.

 

I think I know that road. Isn't it near the top of the Big Island? It's high enough to have sudden snow storms in the afternoons or evenings. Everybody drives like a race car driver up there. I couldn't keep up with some commuters who were running home across the peak through a blinding snow storm with 3 feet of visibility down some twisties marked 20-25 mph at 45-55 mph. What a ride! Love those roads.

[asinn0007]

Damn Fossilfuel, your in the same exact boat as me. Give me a call and I'll give you some pointers on the roads here in Hawaii.

 

On a more serious note... I guess the answer is a simple one. It's partly a machine design and partly a "inexperienced" rider.

 

I will try and see if I can get away from work later this year for school. One question I have for those who instruct or have attended this school. At which point should one attend school. I feel that I should not waste instructors time and mine if I don't have enough of the basics down. I do plan on riding with a friend who has taken most of the racing schools and has raced in the states before, for some pointers.

 

 

Don't worry. Everyone has to go through the same lesson plan regardless of experience. You are not competing with anybody, so there is no incentive to total your bike before you make it to SuperBike School.

[bellevuetlr]

Ok Guys,

I guess I was not good at making a point. I live in Hawaii and I have two motorcycles. One is a 2006 Kawaski 636 (108 hp), weight 402 lbs and I have a 2008 Honda CBR1000RR (160 hp), weight 432lbs with full Ohlins suspension. I have my favorite road to go down and I have been going down this road on the 636 faster than on the 1000. I have never been on a track and have had no on hand instruction. What is it going to take for me to go faster on the 1000 than the 636?

 

 

108hp/408lbs vs 160hp/432lbs

 

 

this is how zoran would put it.... open throttle f(#*ng p@#@y

 

on a serious note, to piggy back what other people on here already said... its probably all mental and how your ride the bike. liter bikes are point and shoot, 600s require momentum.. although the new hondas have some great midrange, you usually need to wring their neck mid corner to get descent corner exit.

 

i dont know of a book that covers these issues.

 

but bottom line... zoran's comment has validity.. to go faster, you must have the balls to twist your right hand not only on the straight away. but during cornering... especially after the apex and exiting.

[donaudi]

Great info guys...

 

thanks again.

 

will be working on my braking and corner exit.