Weird Feelings Entering Turns.

[Crash106]

Dear Superbike Riders,

 

I have something weird that happens on corner entrances--this is on the street, riding my 650cc Burgman with an automatic clutch, but I have felt the same things on my 1200. This is tough to describe, but I'll do my best. Here goes.

 

• 
   
  
• I feel confident on the bike when I enter a turn dragging a little front brake--trail braking.
  
• I feel good on the bike when I've set my speed BEFORE my turn point, and I enter the turn with maintenance throttle already on (NOT accelerating--just holding the throttle steady).
  
• I feel scared and tippy when I enter a corner off the throttle and off the brakes. The bike feels more like it is falling over than tipping in under my control. I'm also afraid of the JOLT I'll get when I try to get back on the throttle. This jolt is really just a little jerk, and I'm trying hard to be smooth, but that drive-line-lash/off-on-throttle thing is very uncomfortable. It doesn't help that I try to get back on the throttle to arrest my lean, so the jolt happens just as I'm at my lowest lean angle. Strangely enough, I seem to have better throttle control when I'm easing off the brake and onto the gas. (I wonder if the turning forces mask the feelings of acceleration.)
  

 

Sometimes I think this happens when I'm just turning in too darned slowly, or when my eyes are too close to the front tire (also causing the entrance speed to be very slow), but even when I try to get it right, entering the turn off the throttle and the brakes feels uncomfortable.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

Do I HAVE to be off brakes and throttle to make a good entrance (certainly not necessary at the posted speed limit)?

Does anyone else get this scary "falling in" feeling?

[faffi]

Frankly, I think it's in your head. Or rather, you think it's unsafe and become a bit tentative. And if you feel insecure, chances are you tighten up, which will affect the steering/handling/stability.

[ozfireblade]

Dear Superbike Riders,

 

I have something weird that happens on corner entrances--this is on the street, riding my 650cc Burgman with an automatic clutch, but I have felt the same things on my 1200. This is tough to describe, but I'll do my best. Here goes.

 

• I feel confident on the bike when I enter a turn dragging a little front brake--trail braking.
• I feel good on the bike when I've set my speed BEFORE my turn point, and I enter the turn with maintenance throttle already on (NOT accelerating--just holding the throttle steady).
• I feel scared and tippy when I enter a corner off the throttle and off the brakes. The bike feels more like it is falling over than tipping in under my control. I'm also afraid of the JOLT I'll get when I try to get back on the throttle. This jolt is really just a little jerk, and I'm trying hard to be smooth, but that drive-line-lash/off-on-throttle thing is very uncomfortable. It doesn't help that I try to get back on the throttle to arrest my lean, so the jolt happens just as I'm at my lowest lean angle. Strangely enough, I seem to have better throttle control when I'm easing off the brake and onto the gas. (I wonder if the turning forces mask the feelings of acceleration.)

 

Sometimes I think this happens when I'm just turning in too darned slowly, or when my eyes are too close to the front tire (also causing the entrance speed to be very slow), but even when I try to get it right, entering the turn off the throttle and the brakes feels uncomfortable.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

Do I HAVE to be off brakes and throttle to make a good entrance (certainly not necessary at the posted speed limit)?

Does anyone else get this scary "falling in" feeling?

 

 

Mate I have no idea what tippy means, must be a yank thing . If it feels like its falling over maybe you are going too slow? This might be the reason that when you get on the gas again and the bike jolts is when it sorts its self out from your input. I think also that you might be confusing getting over to the outside of your tyre profile to falling, as when you first get over onto the edge (depending on type of tyre) it does sorta feel like your falling over. Are you continually pushing the handlebars when turning or push then let the bike steer? Continual pushing will make the bike fall over.

 

Looking at your front tyre means your looking too close and increasing your visual speed, you will get a ground rush feeling making you think your going faster than you are.

 

I personally think you just need to concentrate on one thing at a time and maybe start off with throttle control. I think your trying to do too much at once, getting yourself confused and maybe not understanding the book? Theres a hell of a lot of informatioin in there and it takes a lot of reads to understand it properly, I must have read them 20 odd times and I'm still reading because things are becoming clearer and easier to understand. Bullet said the same to me when I first got into the forum and had things confused.

 

I dont know how long you've been riding, where or with who, But the biggest thing is you need to get youself to a school and just stay safe between now and then.

 

just my 2 c worth hope it helps mate

[Fajita Dave]

• I feel scared and tippy when I enter a corner off the throttle and off the brakes. The bike feels more like it is falling over than tipping in under my control. I'm also afraid of the JOLT I'll get when I try to get back on the throttle. This jolt is really just a little jerk, and I'm trying hard to be smooth, but that drive-line-lash/off-on-throttle thing is very uncomfortable. It doesn't help that I try to get back on the throttle to arrest my lean, so the jolt happens just as I'm at my lowest lean angle. Strangely enough, I seem to have better throttle control when I'm easing off the brake and onto the gas. (I wonder if the turning forces mask the feelings of acceleration.)

 

On my 600 the throttle roll on isn't very smooth at certain RPM. Between 5 and 7k RPM it has a bit of a jolt when I get back on the throttle after I leaned into a corner. If I'm above that RPM its silky smooth when I roll back on the throttle. I know the 2006 GSXR600 had some serious issues with a jerky throttle when you rolled back into it (Harnois knows all about it). I think it has a lot to do with fuel mapping or carburetor setup. Maybe try a lower gear while going the same speed and see what happens.

 

For the tipping into corners you might be holding pressure on the inside bar causing it to lean further. Try pressing on the bar to lean it and releasing as soon as your leaned over the desired amount. You might also be tensing up in general which can cause that sensation. I know it can be tough for you but try to stay relaxed and light on the handlebars.

[Jasonzilla]

My guess is that you've been doing it so wrong that doing it the proper way feels weird.

 

1. I'm completely comfortable being off the gas and guiding the bike to full lean. I don't race, so there are few turns I trail brake in, but it feels just fine.

 

2. Maybe you're at a point of increased lean that is new to you and you have to get used to it? Just because you learn proper lean and getting the bike over doesn't mean it's going to be easy. It's still a new sensation. You could have changed your BP and feel like you're getting over more, and that could be causing it.

 

3. Adding throttle to halt lean equates to adding lean angle and throttle. Not good. You're going to get comfortable doing that and one day it's going to be just a little too much throttle on a little too much lean angle.

 

I would recommend repeated off throttle and brake turning so you can get used to it and start trusting the bike. Bad things will not happen unless you're going to slow. There is no throttle to chop to front end tuck, and there is no brake to clamp on to that would cause a lowside.

[acebobby]

 

 

I would recommend repeated off throttle and brake turning so you can get used to it and start trusting the bike. Bad things will not happen unless you're going to slow. There is no throttle to chop to front end tuck, and there is no brake to clamp on to that would cause a lowside.

 

Hi Jason,

I'm not sure what your suggesting the op tries here and am slightly confused.

Are you suggesting that he coasts off the throttle around the corner? If so I dont think that would be good practice and I think that throttle control rule #1 should never be compromised!

 

I have that little jerk from off - on throttle but its not enough that it would cause the bike to lose traction so I would suggest learning to live with it, (I look at it as, well thats the throttle cracked open)!

Anyway you have a lot of answers from the forum regulars but I would suggest going back to basics a little bit and concentrate on

1/ entry speed

2/ turn point then target point (usually apex), 2 step sets the exact amount of lean angle required, DO NOT try to lean further than you have to!

3/ TC rule #1 combined with looking at your target point then moving the eyes on to the exit point as you roll on!

This may be over simplified but 1/ will determine the required lean angle and blends flawlessley into 2/ this is where your skill at steering comes into play, where you set your lean angle then immediately onto 3 (But only when you are finished 2)!

basically you know what your supposed to do, you have read the books and are wondering why these drills dont seem to be working for you! I would say make sure you have set your lean angle before you crack the throttle open, that will give you more control, and always work on the visual's!

 

Bobby

[Crash106]

Thanks for all the great feedback everyone. I took all your suggestions and went for a couple of nice long rides. From what I can tell on my own, I seem to have TWO problems.

 

1) First Problem. Doing the One Step: Finding a turn point, then looking at the turn point too long and entering the corner slower than I intended. My mind thinks I need more lean angle than I really do because I THOUGHT I was going to enter the turn a bit faster. I feel like I'm falling in because I am adding more lean angle than the speed of the turn requires. I need a sudden burst of throttle just to keep from falling over. Duh! Solution? Two Step.

 

2) Second Problem. I was trying to arrest the lean angle with the throttle instead of the handlebars. Solution? I found that if I use my vision correctly (Two Step) and enter the turn at the proper speed (not too slowly), then I am completely comfortable leaning the bike in off the throttle and off the brakes. When I set my final lean angle with the handlebars (not the throttle), I found I could easily add throttle and apply TCR#1 through the remainder of the turn.

 

Problems? In too slow and throttle on too soon! Solutions: Two Step and TCR#1.

 

Thanks so much for all your help. I tried this with my Burgman and a demo Goldwing and it worked great on both bikes. You are the best!

[Bullet]

Great work helping Crash out guys, you disected his problem briliiantly well. Crash, glad you got a quick/good resolution by applying the tech.

 

Bullet

[johnnyrod]

Crash, as I read your first post it sounds like you're going into the turn with the throttle off, then trying to open it from nothing mid-turn, usually at the biggest lean angle. Have you tried setting your entry speed, then picking up a trailing throttle as you're gettign turned in, then you're ready to drive it through the bend and open it up as you exit? Deffo right about using bars instead of throttle to adjust lean angle - in this case it does sound like you should have been using the steering instead to do the job.

[pete]

It sounds like several have already responded with the most obvious tech points. BUT, how is the front tire? What kind of shape or profile does it have?

[ktk_ace]

It sounds like the CVT on your burgman has a very violent engadging/disengadging cycle on the RPMs where you need the power...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[the razor]

Dear Superbike Riders,

 

I have something weird that happens on corner entrances--this is on the street, riding my 650cc Burgman with an automatic clutch, but I have felt the same things on my 1200. This is tough to describe, but I'll do my best. Here goes.

 

• I feel confident on the bike when I enter a turn dragging a little front brake--trail braking.
• I feel good on the bike when I've set my speed BEFORE my turn point, and I enter the turn with maintenance throttle already on (NOT accelerating--just holding the throttle steady).
• I feel scared and tippy when I enter a corner off the throttle and off the brakes. The bike feels more like it is falling over than tipping in under my control. I'm also afraid of the JOLT I'll get when I try to get back on the throttle. This jolt is really just a little jerk, and I'm trying hard to be smooth, but that drive-line-lash/off-on-throttle thing is very uncomfortable. It doesn't help that I try to get back on the throttle to arrest my lean, so the jolt happens just as I'm at my lowest lean angle. Strangely enough, I seem to have better throttle control when I'm easing off the brake and onto the gas. (I wonder if the turning forces mask the feelings of acceleration.)

 

Sometimes I think this happens when I'm just turning in too darned slowly, or when my eyes are too close to the front tire (also causing the entrance speed to be very slow), but even when I try to get it right, entering the turn off the throttle and the brakes feels uncomfortable.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

Do I HAVE to be off brakes and throttle to make a good entrance (certainly not necessary at the posted speed limit)?

Does anyone else get this scary "falling in" feeling?

 

Crash. You have a lot of pointers already. One thing it seems to me, you are a street rider. So am I. One thing I do when I go riding, when I am apporaching a corner, I look for an estimate reference point. Then When I am close to it I start looking for the apex. the apex is the one that dictates exactly my turning point. (soft turn, shap turn, etc.) I use the flick technique on the street. Remember that there is a big difference between a race track where you go over the same turns a few times and when you go on the street. If you go over the same street over and over and you know exactly the TP, apex and exits, then you can concentrate on the TP. Otherwise, It is going to be by instinct. ( I remember Dylan, telling us in level one, when approaching a corner Keep looking and looking until you see the apex then turn. The turn could be a flick of the bike or not according to the speed you are traveling. this technique helped me a lot on the street. Also I remember Peter telling me to relax on the turns, and boy what a difference it made). By doing that I can feel and undestand the bike like I have never. It also dictates the corner speed I am using. If I do not know the corner(s), I use a speed I feel confident with, therefore I can turn no matter what type of turn it is avoiding the brakes . Also, it dictates how aggresive I am going to be with the throttle once I commit to the turn. After taken Level I, my confidence has increase 110%. Just giving you my experience as a street rider and how I have adapted the CSS class to my type of riding. Good luck to you

The razor

55 STAY ALIVE

[Chad Wille]

Dear Superbike Riders,

 

I have something weird that happens on corner entrances--this is on the street, riding my 650cc Burgman with an automatic clutch, but I have felt the same things on my 1200. This is tough to describe, but I'll do my best. Here goes.

 

• I feel confident on the bike when I enter a turn dragging a little front brake--trail braking.
• I feel good on the bike when I've set my speed BEFORE my turn point, and I enter the turn with maintenance throttle already on (NOT accelerating--just holding the throttle steady).
• I feel scared and tippy when I enter a corner off the throttle and off the brakes. The bike feels more like it is falling over than tipping in under my control. I'm also afraid of the JOLT I'll get when I try to get back on the throttle. This jolt is really just a little jerk, and I'm trying hard to be smooth, but that drive-line-lash/off-on-throttle thing is very uncomfortable. It doesn't help that I try to get back on the throttle to arrest my lean, so the jolt happens just as I'm at my lowest lean angle. Strangely enough, I seem to have better throttle control when I'm easing off the brake and onto the gas. (I wonder if the turning forces mask the feelings of acceleration.)

 

Sometimes I think this happens when I'm just turning in too darned slowly, or when my eyes are too close to the front tire (also causing the entrance speed to be very slow), but even when I try to get it right, entering the turn off the throttle and the brakes feels uncomfortable.

 

Am I doing it wrong?

Do I HAVE to be off brakes and throttle to make a good entrance (certainly not necessary at the posted speed limit)?

Does anyone else get this scary "falling in" feeling?

 

 

 

Maybe you already got the right answers but I had a 1986 Honda that felt exactly like this. The previous owner sold the bike to me because of it. Fine up to a certain angle of lean, so most of the time you never encountered it when lightly street riding, but take a tight corner at any speed or throttle and sometimes the front just fell into a hole. We poured over the problem trying to think and do everything we could. In the end it was.........tire pressure. Check your front tire pressure regularly and with outside temperature changes. We were down about 12 lbs. Good luck.

[Cobie Fair]

A few points on this, did you get them answered?

 

One thing you brought up is the jolt you get from off to on throttle. There can be some things that will help this. One is how much throttle play do you have? I run very little/none in mine, just so it won't rev up if I turn the bars lock to lock.

 

Another is some bikes have had a bit of a snatch, and that can normally be tuned out, if it has carbs using a kit, or if fuel injected a different map. On some bikes the cush driver didn't fit correctly, and can be helped there too.

 

There are other points to this, but lets start with these, let me know.

 

CF

[dmj120]

Another is some bikes have had a bit of a snatch, and that can normally be tuned out, if it has carbs using a kit, or if fuel injected a different map. On some bikes the cush driver didn't fit correctly, and can be helped there too.

 

CF

 

 

For us less mechanically verbose... What is a "snatch?"

[khp]

Another is some bikes have had a bit of a snatch, and that can normally be tuned out, if it has carbs using a kit, or if fuel injected a different map. On some bikes the cush driver didn't fit correctly, and can be helped there too.

For us less mechanically verbose... What is a "snatch?"

I presume that Cobie is talking about that some bikes have a very rough on/off-throttle action (some call it "jerky"), which makes smooth nice throttle action when going on/off the gas a near impossibility.

 

Many of the first-generation fuel-injection bikes were like this, and some "2nd generation" FI bikes have a CV valve to get the smooth off/on-throttle behaviour [like my 2003 R1].

 

 

Kai

[Cobie Fair]

There was one bike we had that had a mechanical issue--the cush drive (in the hub of the rear wheel, the rubber pieces that fit inside) were a little too small. On that bike we added some small pieces of hard plastic to take up the space, problem solved. That's not common as far as I know.

 

The other issue is of course what Kai is talking about, the transition from off to on throttle that is due to fuel mapping not being quite ideal (in some cases made worse due to too much throttle cable play--that is easily adjusted, only takes a few moments).

 

Let us know if that's clear on these points.

 

Best,

CF