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mugget

Quick Steer When You're Not Upright Entering A Corner?

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Hi All,

 

I just have a question about Quick Steer. The track I did Level 1 at was nice and easy to practice this, because all of the corner entries started with the bike in an upright position. So I could just steer it as quick as I could without any worries about traction.

 

But at a track day today I realised that I'm not quite sure how to handle a Quick Steer in sections where the bike is carrying some lean angle already. For example a left hand corner that leads into another left hander so soon that the bike is still leant over from the exit of the first corner. (This situation could also come up as a rider gets faster and where they were previous upright they are now carrying lean angle.) Really I suppose the first corner exit never finishes (the bike doesn't make it upright), the 2nd corner just starts part way through the 1st corner exit.

 

I am thinking that the force of the quick steer may need to be reduced as the lean angle increases (similar to using the brakes). But then I think about it some more and I'm conflicted! ohmy.gif

Since the turning force and braking force are very different - does the quick steer force really need to be reduced with lean angle? For example it's possible to lose traction under braking (whether the bike is upright or in a corner, it's possible to lock the front wheel), but with quick steering it is nigh-on impossible to lose traction as a result.

 

Would it be correct to say that the only time a steering input will cause a crash is when the bike is already at max lean? Or if the rider is trying to do something else at the same time (like accelerating or braking)?

 

I started to feel my way into some leant-over quick steering today, but didn't really feel confident to push it (although I also felt completely fine and it did not cause any "moments"). I am at the same track again tomorrow, so I will experiment with this and report back (depending on my success or failure).

 

Edited to add: all mentions of quick steer assume a good track surface and good tyres...

 

Cheers,

 

Conrad

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Hi Conrad,

 

So many questions... :-)

 

First, let's consider a "normal" corner where the bike is upright when you initiate the turn. Here, there should be little doubt that you can virtually push as much as you'd like without loosing the front, right?

 

Also, let's make sure we agree on the following:

1) The harder you push on the handlebar, the higher the turn rate will be.

2) But what decides the ultimate lean angle is WHEN you stop applying pressure to the handlebar.

 

Now, for the sake of the argument let's mathematically cut the turning action into two. That is, the two parts makes the full action from fully upright to maximum lean.

 

Would that change ANYTHING about that turning action?

Nothing at all!

 

So how does this apply to your turn-in, when you start out with some lean?

 

Another way of looking at your turn is to consider it as a double-apex turn, since they're so close. I would certainly consider such an approach.

 

I assume that the first turn is a fast turn, likely faster than the second turn?

 

Kai (from the phone)

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Bad news, Mugget--you are now riding your track bike like a Harley!

 

A classic way to ride a heavy cruiser on the street is to enter a corner by going around the outside of the turn. In other words, you tip the bike in at, say 10 degrees of lean. Then, when you see the apex and all is clear (no trucks or squids in your lane), you make a possitive turn toward the apex and lean in to a frieghtening (on a cruiser) 20-degrees. This type of a line is called Tip-in Turn-in. It is actually a safe and conservative way to ride on the street.

 

I also see a lot of MotoGP riders using this technique. They approach the curve and TIP in till they about drag their boot, THEN they pick up their foot and actually TURN in. I don't stick my foot out, but I like this approach sometimes because once I have tipped in, I don't feel like I'm about to run off the road. Somehow, leaning MORE seems less scary to me than that initial lean from straight up.

 

You must be pretty comfortable on our trak bike to notice this. Well done.

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Bad news, Mugget--you are now riding your track bike like a Harley!

 

A classic way to ride a heavy cruiser on the street is to enter a corner by going around the outside of the turn. In other words, you tip the bike in at, say 10 degrees of lean. Then, when you see the apex and all is clear (no trucks or squids in your lane), you make a possitive turn toward the apex and lean in to a frieghtening (on a cruiser) 20-degrees. This type of a line is called Tip-in Turn-in. It is actually a safe and conservative way to ride on the street.

 

I also see a lot of MotoGP riders using this technique. They approach the curve and TIP in till they about drag their boot, THEN they pick up their foot and actually TURN in. I don't stick my foot out, but I like this approach sometimes because once I have tipped in, I don't feel like I'm about to run off the road. Somehow, leaning MORE seems less scary to me than that initial lean from straight up.

 

You must be pretty comfortable on our trak bike to notice this. Well done.

Im guessing your front and/or rear tires are mixed?

 

I did ride the same built of my bike with different tires,

 

those with a rounder profile front (more V than U) mixed with a neutral round tire ( more U than V) will result in a very fast inital lean in continued with a "stopping force" when the rear tire reach their biggest contact patches with no chicken stripes to spare

 

I personally wont call that a neutral handling bike

 

I might be wrong , could be suspension or other things too thou.

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what track what corners and do you have a link to any track day/racing footage?

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Bad news, Mugget--you are now riding your track bike like a Harley!

 

A classic way to ride a heavy cruiser on the street is to enter a corner by going around the outside of the turn. In other words, you tip the bike in at, say 10 degrees of lean. Then, when you see the apex and all is clear (no trucks or squids in your lane), you make a possitive turn toward the apex and lean in to a frieghtening (on a cruiser) 20-degrees. This type of a line is called Tip-in Turn-in. It is actually a safe and conservative way to ride on the street.

 

I also see a lot of MotoGP riders using this technique. They approach the curve and TIP in till they about drag their boot, THEN they pick up their foot and actually TURN in. I don't stick my foot out, but I like this approach sometimes because once I have tipped in, I don't feel like I'm about to run off the road. Somehow, leaning MORE seems less scary to me than that initial lean from straight up.

 

You must be pretty comfortable on our trak bike to notice this. Well done.

 

 

 

 

I have no idea what your statement means

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Okay--the short version: Sometimes it is okay, in my opinion, to lean in, then lean in some more.

 

For example: Here are a couple of riders violating the One Steering Input rule, and making it work at about -1:14 to -1:05.

 

Edited by Crash106

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Are you referring to the Rossi Dangle ? cause that's the only time i see MotoGP riders touch their boots on the tarmac and if I'm not mistaken its all about balance whilst being insanely "on the brakes" heading into a turn

 

Wouldn't leaning in and then leaning some more violate Steering Rule 1 "One steering input per turn", and cause you to either wait longer before getting back on the throttle, until after your second steering input, or result in applying lean angle and throttle at the same time. In either case I would think that your line would then not be correct through the corner as you cannot apply the throttle rule correctly.

 

 

 

 

 

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Mugget I'm assuming your on about Queensland raceway turns 5/6? From some footage I just had a look at I would say One steering input- check the throttle slightly as you intentionally run a little wide- get on the gas as you pick the bike up out of the corner.

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Bad news, Mugget--you are now riding your track bike like a Harley!

 

A classic way to ride a heavy cruiser on the street is to enter a corner by going around the outside of the turn. In other words, you tip the bike in at, say 10 degrees of lean. Then, when you see the apex and all is clear (no trucks or squids in your lane), you make a possitive turn toward the apex and lean in to a frieghtening (on a cruiser) 20-degrees. This type of a line is called Tip-in Turn-in. It is actually a safe and conservative way to ride on the street.

 

I also see a lot of MotoGP riders using this technique. They approach the curve and TIP in till they about drag their boot, THEN they pick up their foot and actually TURN in. I don't stick my foot out, but I like this approach sometimes because once I have tipped in, I don't feel like I'm about to run off the road. Somehow, leaning MORE seems less scary to me than that initial lean from straight up.

 

You must be pretty comfortable on our trak bike to notice this. Well done.

 

Sorry Crash, but this response does not at all address Mugget's question or the track configuration he is describing.

 

Mugget - with respect to the quick turn when the bike is not fully upright - I agree with Kai. Turns 9 & 10 (IIRC) at Thunderbolt are just as you've described (though they are right handers). You drive out of 9 but never get the bike fully upright, and then you turn much further into 10. The quick turn is performed just the same, only less lean angle is added since the bike is already leaned in some. (In this example, for me - my corner entry speed is already set and I am NOT on the brakes when I lean into 10).

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Two Examples:

 


  •  
  • Rider R (racer) enters a corner already leaned over, then he adds more lean angle to make his apex.
  • Rider C (cruiser) enters a corner and leans over, then he adds more lean angle to make his apex.

 

Sounds similar to me. :unsure: Both riders are adding lean angle while already leaned over. Granted, the above examples do not address Mugget's original concern about how FAST he can steer when already leaned over.

 

When I am already leaned over in a corner then decide to add MORE lean angle, I tend to do it more slowly than when I do all my steering at once at the entrance to the corner. I'm extra careful because I don't want to add lean angle and throttle at the same time, and I don't want to add lean angle too fast and start dragging hard parts. Basically, I take it slow because I'm a clumsy lout and have a hard time walking down a hallway without bumping into the walls never mind ride a motorcycle, however, as long as I don't run out of tire tread, I don't think the TIRES care if I lean them from straight up to 45 degrees or from 35 to 45 degrees.

 

So, IMHO, a skilled rider, such as Mugget, certainly CAN quick steer the bike when leaned over, but it takes a bit of finesse.

 

(Is that any clearer? I am sorry if I have expressed this badly. :( )

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...For example a left hand corner that leads into another left hander so soon that the bike is still leant over from the exit of the first corner. (This situation could also come up as a rider gets faster and where they were previous upright they are now carrying lean angle.) Really I suppose the first corner exit never finishes (the bike doesn't make it upright), the 2nd corner just starts part way through the 1st corner exit.

 

 

Crash - you are describing TWO steering inputs to get to the desired lean angle PRIOR to the apex, which is generally the result of one or several improper techniques.

 

The way I read Mugget's description is more of a double apex corner, since he mentions EXITING the first corner (see bolded above), meaning he has already hit his apex but is not yet fully upright as he drives out and now has to lean for the next corner.

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Crash have you done Level 1 yet?

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Wow - I wasn't expecting so many replies! Thanks all for your participation.

 

Cheers khp, that makes sense. I was starting to think along those lines, but just wanted to check that against other peoples experience.

So how does this apply to your turn-in, when you start out with some lean?

 

Okay - so to answer the question of how to quick steer when you already have some lean angle - the steering input will lessened because there is less distance to full lean. And to take it further, there could be a couple of ways this could be accomplished - either with a lot of input force, and a shorter length of time; or with a lesser input force and for a longer time.

 

I think the main thing that kind of threw me is that my only reference point for Quick Steer had been that I was only doing it from upright. Previously I'd never really thought of it as an option in slower corners, or places where the bike already had some lean. Glad to have that clarified. I did keep practicing quick steer, more forcefully in some corners than others - but it made a big difference to the approach speed and corner entry speed (both were faster). In the pits yesterday I was actually parked up next to a guy who had done Level 2 last year, he was trying to remember his lessons... but I saw him doing the Quick Steer into one corner in particular and that also helped to answer my question.

 

Bad news, Mugget--you are now riding your track bike like a Harley!

 

Crash - you sure know how to ruin a guys day! laugh.giftongue.gif

That's just depressing to think that my Gixxer has been spoken of in the same sentence as a Harley... but I get what you're saying. Although it seems like the big difference is that you're talking about the Harley rider starting at upright, whereas I'm talking about starting my steering while the bike already has lean angle carried out of the previous corner. What BLSJDS guessed was right - I would already be well past my apex on the first corner and well into the throttle, but still leant over a bit when I need to enter the next corner. Taking two steering inputs for a turn just seems a bit wacky... let's just say that I'm riding very differently to Harley riders who do that, and that shall be the last mention of Harleys. Then we can all stay friends as well. biggrin.gif Haha tongue.gif

 

what track what corners and do you have a link to any track day/racing footage?

 

It was at Lakeside. This was the best map I could find:

 

Map.jpg

 

It's a really windy track (read that as "it's a fantastic track"), and the number of places where the bike is upright become fewer the faster you go around. The main place I had in mind with this question was coming out of the Bus Stop, under the bridge and downhill through that fast-ish left hander. Depending how fast you go, and your line through there you can be carrying some lean angle when you get to the next left hander at Hungry Corner.

 

There's some double apex fun at The Karrassel and Eastern Loop...

 

Good idea to find a video, this is the best one I could find:

 

Maybe it gives you a better idea of the track, but wow - watching that vid now and the differences to how my riding has changed really stand out. For example the vid shows that guy turning into corners way way early and staying wide through corners, but I digress.

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I'm a bit slow to join the party on this thread - sounds like you already worked it out, Mugget - but I do want to point out that what SEEMS like two steering inputs is covered in Twist of the Wrist II, in Chapter 17 in a section called "Track Positioning". It starts on page 75. Essentially, it discusses putting the bike where you want it, for your major steering change, and gives specific examples of where and why you would want to do this and how and why it does not violate the "one steering input" rule.

 

Keep in mind, there can be situations where you lean the bike some, to steer yourself over to your turn-in point - like in a very wide entry turn, or decreasing radius turn with a late turn point. But there are ALSO situations where you have a very fast transition from left to right (over vice versa) and you might have to make your steering input for your LEFT turn while you are still leaned over to the RIGHT. :)

 

Now, here's a question back to you - if you are ALREADY leaned over, and you want to make a steering input that will lean the bike over more, what should you do with the throttle?

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Cheers Hotfoot - good info, I just gave myself a refresher on Chapter 17 as well.

 

Now, for the question of being already leaned over and wanting to make another steering input to further increase lean angle - what to do with the throttle... Well we can rule out adding more throttle because that would reduce stability and traction. Also it's probably fair to say that we would want to adhere to Throttle Control Rule #1, so my preference would be to close the throttle while making the steering input, then open the throttle smoothly and continuously once I knew I was going to achieve my chosen line.

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I would think closing the throttle would cause just as much if not more instability, I would vote for going flat on the throttle completing your steering input and resuming your application of Rule #1

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Cheers Hotfoot - good info, I just gave myself a refresher on Chapter 17 as well.

 

Now, for the question of being already leaned over and wanting to make another steering input to further increase lean angle - what to do with the throttle... Well we can rule out adding more throttle because that would reduce stability and traction. Also it's probably fair to say that we would want to adhere to Throttle Control Rule #1, so my preference would be to close the throttle while making the steering input, then open the throttle smoothly and continuously once I knew I was going to achieve my chosen line.

 

Right, adding throttle AND lean angle at the same time is a risky proposition. So, depending on the turn, you might want to dip the throttle some, or close it completely, or maybe even just go flat on the throttle, to make your steering change. When you close or dip the throttle, what happens to the front suspension, and how does that affect your steeering?

 

And how about the opposite - bonus question - if you are hard on the throttle and make a fast steering transition (left/right or vice versa) what potentially undesirable thing can happen?

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I would think closing the throttle would cause just as much if not more instability, I would vote for going flat on the throttle completing your steering input and resuming your application of Rule #1

 

Going flat on the throttle can work, for sure - but you express a concern about closing the throttle causing instability. So let me ask this - when you are trying to steer the bike, make it change direction, is stabilizing the bike really what you want to do?

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Right, adding throttle AND lean angle at the same time is a risky proposition. So, depending on the turn, you might want to dip the throttle some, or close it completely, or maybe even just go flat on the throttle, to make your steering change. When you close or dip the throttle, what happens to the front suspension, and how does that affect your steeering?

 

Hmmm... so reducing throttle will change the weight distribution, so the forks will compress, effectively creating a sharper/quicker steering angle? Meaning that the bike will tip in with less effort?

 

I always do my quick steer with a completely closed throttle - reason being that I'm a bit worried about accidentally rolling the throttle, especially into a right hand corner. Is that something that you've ever found to cause issues? Maybe I just need to be open to the idea and not worry about it so much...

 

And how about the opposite - bonus question - if you are hard on the throttle and make a fast steering transition (left/right or vice versa) what potentially undesirable thing can happen?

 

Bonus question! Well that would essentially be a low traction situation as far as the front tyre goes. Hard on the throttle + fast steering input... quite possible that the front tyre could leave the ground, and chances are that it wouldn't touch down in the same position? Quite likely cause a tank slapper or some other type of instability? In which case, the best course of action would be to stay on the throttle (definitely not to chop the throttle, but maybe to roll off a bit), right?

 

 

 

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Going flat on the throttle can work, for sure - but you express a concern about closing the throttle causing instability. So let me ask this - when you are trying to steer the bike, make it change direction, is stabilizing the bike really what you want to do?

 

If you were going from one direction to the either your doing a pretty good job of destabilizing the bike as you turn it , but if I'm going from partially leaned over to even more leaned over I would like to keep the bike as stable as possible

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Going flat on the throttle can work, for sure - but you express a concern about closing the throttle causing instability. So let me ask this - when you are trying to steer the bike, make it change direction, is stabilizing the bike really what you want to do?

 

If you were going from one direction to the either your doing a pretty good job of destabilizing the bike as you turn it , but if I'm going from partially leaned over to even more leaned over I would like to keep the bike as stable as possible

 

Ok. So there is a very broad spectrum here, depending on the turn - how much are you leaned over to begin with, how much do you need to turn it, how quickly do you want to steer, etc., so the amount you dip the throttle (if at all) will vary widely depending on the situation. Just keep in mind we are talking about getting the bike TO the turn point, not a mid-corner steering correction, which is a whole different animal.

 

Generally, when we talk about track positioning, we are talking about steering the bike over to your real turn point, so you are usually not leaned over dramatically, and in most cases you are slowing down, as you approach the turn, so you would already be off the throttle. However, in Muggets example he is still leaned over from the exit of a prior turn. So how much he lets off the throttle is something he will have to judge based on the sequence of turns - if the second turn is faster than the first one, if he can effectively quick steer the bike without closing the throttle entirely, it might be to his advantage to minimize the amount he dips the throttle so he can try to carry as much speed as possible into the second turn.

 

Anyone remember throttle control rule number two?

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Throttle Control Rule no 2

 

Calculate your roll OFF speed, as accurately as you would your Roll ON speed.

 

Not verbatim, but that is the jist of it...

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Here is the exact wording:

"In any fast-entry turn, calculate the roll-off as carefully as you would a roll-on."

 

There is a cool quote from Donny Greene relating to this, it seems relevant to mugget's original question - it's at the end of Chapter 6 in Twist of the Wrist II, page 31. It starts like this:

"At one track it took Keith 10 years to talk me into using the throttle correctly in fast turn entries..." :)

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