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Leaning More And More During The Turn


w0ngster
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Hi,

 

I plan on doing the CSS school but it wont be offered here at streets of willow till after summer unfortunately. My questions is;

 

1. after coming off 2 crashes at the track i realize one big issue i have is when i go into a turn, i end up leaning more into the turn as it progresses. Why is that?

2. im not using the the three step technique BECAUSE, after i realize the turn in and apex, things quickly change as you lean into the corner and lose your markers. Causing me to enter and exit the turns blindly.

3. when im already in the turn right before the apex usually, and look towards my a general area where i want to exit, my line tightens. Dosent matter if im off or on the throttle why?

 

These are the problems i face. And exiting a turn seems to be the most scary for me... since thats how both crashes happened.

 

 

 

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How did your crash? Lowside? Highside? Front and/or rear tyre let go?

 

If you manage to tighten the turn while accelerating, you must generate a lot of force on the handlebars. This again asks a lot of the front tyre, meaning there's a risk of it washing out.

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Directly from the CSS handbook you receive at the school:

 

"Riders tend to add lean angle and throttle in the second half of turns. This can be the result of a number of different rider errors. The problem that results is crashing. In fact, this is the most common race track crash for newer riders and track day participants. This is a huge safety point."

 

I can only guess what might be causing your issue, but here are some of my thoughts. The bike needs to be turned quickly and accurately to the lean angle that will put you on the line you have chosen. You might be adding lean angle throughout the turn to compensate for being off line. If you are offline, you may not be selecting AND hitting your reference points (turn in, apex, exit), which you stated in point # 2.

 

Every rider will choose somewhat different reference points, but it sounds like yours might be putting you much further off the "race line" than you should be. If you are hitting your apex and then find that you need to add lean angle / tighten up your line to hit your exit reference point (in a fairly standard corner), then your apex may not be ideal. Adding lean angle after the apex generally indicates an issue, as stated above. On a typical exit onto a straight, you should be able to roll on the throttle somewhat aggressively as you straighten up the bike.

 

Sorry for rambling on - hopefully some of it made sense and/or helped.

 

Dan

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Wongster,

 

There are a few parts to the complete answer to your questions. First off, with the Twist 2 book, you could get an overview of a few techniques, and they end up relating together as a package.

 

How about looking at where you start your turn? If you started the turn in a locaiton that would allow you to have one single steering change, and not have to lean the bike over more later in the turn, could it be done without adding more lean angle? Forget all the other pieces for a moment.

 

Let me know if that makes sense as a starting point.

 

Best

CF

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Wongster,

 

There are a few parts to the complete answer to your questions. First off, with the Twist 2 book, you could get an overview of a few techniques, and they end up relating together as a package.

 

How about looking at where you start your turn? If you started the turn in a locaiton that would allow you to have one single steering change, and not have to lean the bike over more later in the turn, could it be done without adding more lean angle? Forget all the other pieces for a moment.

 

Let me know if that makes sense as a starting point.

 

Best

CF

 

^+1. Also, have you had a coach/experienced rider give you a "chalk talk" for that track? If you are a newer rider on that track, you may be surprised by how different the reference points & lines the veterans use are compared to the "obvious" points. And yes, it makes a difference!

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thanks for the great input guys. Both where low sides. I have read both Twist books but its difficult to apply the things you've learned in the heat of the moment.

 

I have a video of my first fall first track day. I know my lines aren't great. 2 things if you guys can notice is that my suit is to tight. and that my suspension is stock! and i was 280lbs then with gear. That turn where i crashed i had no indicator of lean angle and i tried adding throttle in hopes that it would carry me through the turn... but i was wrong :o

 

Crash is at 7:15~ if you want to fastforward

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wongster,

 

There are a few parts to the complete answer to your questions. First off, with the Twist 2 book, you could get an overview of a few techniques, and they end up relating together as a package.

 

How about looking at where you start your turn? If you started the turn in a locaiton that would allow you to have one single steering change, and not have to lean the bike over more later in the turn, could it be done without adding more lean angle? Forget all the other pieces for a moment.

 

Let me know if that makes sense as a starting point.

 

Best

CF

 

I have a question in response to that. If you progress to the point of using only one turning input/quick flick, but when your speed picks up and you arent able to turn the bike over fast onto the correct line(pointing towards the apex) how do you compensate, and what happens? The solution to the problem is obviously to turn it in faster but you always reach uncertain variables due to inexperience's. Do you just stick with your existing turn in and ride the lean/line you have set for your

self?

 

 

-W

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I really should keep quiet since I do not have the knowledge to comment on the same level as Cobie & Co, but to me it seemed like you used much more lean than the bloke with the camera. Especially when you fell, it looked like you more or less ran out of cornering clearance/tyres. Your line was wider than that of the camera bike - and that bike seemed to be far from its limits. A bit weird to my eyes.

 

Now for the experts to chime in with some valuable information :)

 

 

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I really should keep quiet since I do not have the knowledge to comment on the same level as Cobie & Co, but to me it seemed like you used much more lean than the bloke with the camera. Especially when you fell, it looked like you more or less ran out of cornering clearance/tyres. Your line was wider than that of the camera bike - and that bike seemed to be far from its limits. A bit weird to my eyes.

 

Now for the experts to chime in with some valuable information :)

 

 

 

How does one use more lean angle if its before the apex? Care to elaborate?

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Watching the video you're very lazy with your turn-in, you tend to roll into the turn rather than flicking it over which all adds up to you needing more and more lean angle throughout the corner. Purely from watching that I'd suggest turning in later and faster.

 

You're also not using much of the track, for a good portion of the lap you're right in the middle of it and turning in at 2/3rds of the width, then not using all of the track on the exit.

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I watched more of the video - I just FFWD the first time - and I am confused about the pace. It seems like you go very fast, then slow, then fast again. Is that down to confidence around various corners, or due to traffic? And when you fell, did you push the front for a long time? I noticed you ran very wide.

 

If you tip in more slowly, you must compensate with more lean. You may also carry more absolute cornering speed than the bloke behind without going faster overall if you make the corners long and round vs. short and sharp. Again, you will need more lean for longer.

 

But as I said; you really need expert commentary here!

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If you progress to the point of using only one turning input/quick flick, but when your speed picks up and you arent able to turn the bike over fast onto the correct line(pointing towards the apex) how do you compensate, and what happens? The solution to the problem is obviously to turn it in faster but you always reach uncertain variables due to inexperience's. Do you just stick with your existing turn in and ride the lean/line you have set for your self?

 

Twist Of The Wrist II covers this point really well and uses some good diagrams to show the effect of a late turn point combined with a quick steering rate... not sure if you have got a copy of Twist II but that is definitely recommended! The entire steering section will help you, but in particular starting at Ch. 15 Lazy Turns and The Turn Scale, starts to address the concerns you're asking about.

 

If you want to increase your speed into a turn, and remain on the same line, you must increase your steering rate. That is the compensation for going faster into a turn - if you don't do that, you'll need to change your line (or your line will be changed for you as you run wide!). You could make your turn point sooner, in effect changing it to more of a "lazy turn" in which you take longer to accomplish your steering, but that is not a very good plan. Yes you will need to push past that uncertain area, it does take a certain level of commitment and trust to keep increasing your turn rate. CSS Level 1 really helped me a lot with this. It also helps to know that if your machine is in good working order (tyres in good condition etc.) and the track is dry and free of debris, you can literally turn as fast as you want without any problem. The front tyre will not "wash out", in fact you'll notice the rear tyre losing traction before the front does (and that is only if you can quick steer to quite a high level). That remains true while you use a single steering input per turn, and obviously don't touch the brakes or throttle during your steering.

 

Does that help? smile.gif

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Wongster I think it's all down to reference points (RPs) and your rate of turn-in as outlined above. In reply to your original post:

 

1. You're turning in too late for your speed, or to put it another way, too slow for the lateness of your turn-in point, and...

2. You've lost track of your RPs, if you had any, or they're no good

3. Thanks to 1 and 2 you've made your bed and are now lying in it. You should be using the throttle control rule as soon as you've made your turn-in, so you are in control of the grip at both ends of your axe, i.e. controlled roll-on all the way through.

 

The whole thing about turning in quickly, at the right point on the track, is key, by analogy with braking, the harder you brake, the less time you spend doing it and the more time you spend off the brakes beforehand (=quicker). The good news is that this is the sort of thing the guys at CSS see all the time, and it's all addressed in Level 1. For now:

 

Choose a turn-in point and use it each lap.

Concentrate on leaning the bike over as quickly as possible

You'll find your apex becomes earlier as you are now corning tighter. Move your turning point deeper and/or increase your entry speed to balance it out.

 

Bit wordy, sorry, hope it helps to clarify

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How does one use more lean angle if its before the apex? Care to elaborate?

Wongster,

 

Every time that you are leaning more and more during a turn, you are reducing more and more the radius at which you are turning; hence, your line is describing a reduced radius turn (even if the actual turn has a constant radius).

 

Watching the video, one can see that you just reached the limit of traction of your rear tire due to excessive lean angle.

 

For the same speed, the lean angle depends only on the radius of the turn.

Increasing that radius is all that the techniques explained above try to achieve.

 

If the three bikes were moving at about the same speed, why the other two made the turn?

 

Check what the biker ahead of you did differently and compare it to the attached schematic.

post-23333-0-89551900-1341324293_thumb.jpg

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I have a question in response to that. If you progress to the point of using only one turning input/quick flick, but when your speed picks up and you arent able to turn the bike over fast onto the correct line(pointing towards the apex) how do you compensate, and what happens? The solution to the problem is obviously to turn it in faster but you always reach uncertain variables due to inexperience's. Do you just stick with your existing turn in and ride the lean/line you have set for your

self?

 

 

-W

 

That's why it is important to learn how to properly quick turn FIRST, and then increase your speed to match your quick turning abilities, not the other way around. There are other skills that assist in the quick turn as well. ALL of the skills taught at CSS are designed to build off of each other. Your speed will increase naturally as a RESULT of executing the techniques properly. Increasing speed without the skillsets is a big no - no.

 

To answer your question - if you head in too fast and turn the bike slowly, you WILL run wide. At that point, the track / traffic will dictate your options, none of which are ideal. If you can get away with adding lean angle WITHOUT throttle, that is an option. So is straightening up the bike, braking, and running off track.

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1. after coming off 2 crashes at the track i realize one big issue i have is when i go into a turn, i end up leaning more into the turn as it progresses. Why is that?

 

During the crash, it seems your upper body is not hanging off to inside with the bike but crossover to outer side more as you lean more. This may end up bike leaning more into the turn as it progresses (you are pushing the bike more down as you crossover more). In addition, not hanging off properly, you cannot hang loose and then may have put weight on handle bar that makes the bike wobble too.

Not sure my observation is accurate and need other riders to confirm, but the next comment cannot be too much off---the crash could have been saved with level 3 skills of body position and hook turn.

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The input helps tremendously guys. I have my first track day next week at SOW. The track where i have crashed twice!

 

I know repetition is key but is there anyway to reinforce the confidence of quick turning? Ive read the book. But doing is much different from reading.

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Ride at 75% of your ability, so that your attention is on locking onto the bike with your legs, quick turning, getting back on the throttle, and having a relaxed grip on the bars...

 

Build up speed as the day goes on, but in order to improve your confidence in quick turning, you have to practice it, without firing up your SR's, and be willing to experiment with different turn points and quick turn rates...

 

Perfect practice makes perfect...

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I know that it is easy to say, and harder to do but you need to slowly push your Quick Turn limit.

 

I practiced my quick turn back around 2000 to the point where I was using the muscles in the inner leg as a damper for the impact of the kneeslider on the tarmac. Clearly I was overdoing it, but it did teach me about just how quick your QT can be, without ill effects :-)

That is, if the track has a good grip.

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My biggest fear is the middle of the turn, im scared of washing out. (mainly due to adding lean and throttle and me crashing twice from it) The initiation and pick up i understand but once in the lean, the transitions are where i become hesitant about. Ive practiced and try to incorporate what ive read however, its the fact that you think you know what youre doing, and then all of a sudden you wash out and its mind boggling.

 

Example (looks like he added lean and throttle at the same time)

 

For me why i feel that happens and it being a common error is because, i understand the line im suppose to be on and where i need to be, but from my TURN in and APEX RP, i feel like ive hit the turn in RP and look towards my apex RP and dont realize it soon enough that im making an uncessary wider turn in and correcting it mid turn.

 

Its a bit difficult to explain but i hope i made it clear enough where you can understand.

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I would strongly recommend riding with a coach at your next track day (or better yet, sign up for CSS B) ) as he/she would be able to help pinpoint and break down any mistakes you are making.

 

One thing is for sure - if you are waiting until you actually initiate the turn to look to your apex RP, you are looking in WAY WAY too late.

 

My last CSS, I spent 2-3 sessions practicing WHEN to look into the corner and HOW LONG to focus on each RP. Per my discussion with my coach, I purposely looked in very late and very early, and varied my focus times on each RP. What I found was that there really wasn't a penalty to looking in too early, so long as my turn in RP was within my field of vision. There was definitely a penalty for looking in too late, as I consistently failed to hit my apex RP.

 

My coach also confirmed that the apex RP was the most important RP of the three (turn in, apex, exit) and that I could focus on it until I KNEW I was going to hit it. What a difference that made! I was able to put the bike exactly where I wanted it. Even if I focused on my apex RP until I was pretty much on it, I was still in good shape when I looked to my exit RP because the bike was EXACTLY where I needed it to be, so there were no "OH SH!T" moments when I looked ahead B) .

 

Hopefully that makes some sort of sense; if not, please don't hesitate to ask me what the heck I'm talking about.

 

Dan

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BLSJDS is right, you need to shift your focus from the turn-in RP to the apex RP sooner, this is called the 2-step and separates steering from looking. Your turn-in RP is only useful up to a pointm and as you apporach it you can move your vision to look for the apex RP, but keep your turn-in RP in your peripheral vision. This drill tries to prevent you doing what you are doing whch is hanging on to the turn-in RP too long.

 

The other thing is, your turn-in RP doesn't match the rate at which you're getting the bike leaned over. You need to move it back a bit, there isn't one perfect line to follow, so you may be turning-in in a different place to other people but it's the right one for you.

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