Mid-Corner Countersteering

[StevenAthas]

So this might be a dumb question, and I apologize if it is..lol

 

I sometimes have issues trusting my front tire when I am at lean and need to make a steering correction (tightening up the turn). I have really been practicing the hook turn technique and while it helps in situations where the correction is small, on situations where I need to lean the bike over more, I find myself reluctant to countersteer further. It's really a matter of trusting the front tire.

 

So my question is:

 

while I am maintaining throttle, in say a 40 degree lean angle, can I countersteer further? Does the rate of speed matter (Am I able to at 50mph and not at 100mph)?

 

This is something that has kind of plagued my growth as of late. I get into the corner with some speed, get on the throttle and if a correction needs to be made, I cease roll on and maintain throttle and get my head and shoulders lower to the inside of turn. This obviously works because this isn't a story of a crash I had, but can I just use the handle bars and countersteer further? (or do both)

 

I know that counterseering is used to set lean angle at the beginning of the turn, but is it smart to do it mid corner as long as you aren't on the gas? And where's the limit?

 

I hope I've explained this right. I'm working on getting to you guys in April at Streets for the weekend.. stoked.

[ironkiwi]

Not a stupid question at all, and i think all of us do it probably more often than we care to admit!

Generally speaking adding more lean angle isn't the issue, given that the tyre is warm and the road not too slippery etc.

Adding more lean and more throttle is definitely a no no.

Where the limit is? Well if you aren't using all of your front tyre then i would think the limit is still a fair way off, but i'm sure there are more knowledgeable folks than me who will chime in :-)

[Cobie Fair]

Iron, that's a pretty good answer.

 

Adding throttle and lean, we have discussed that at length, but for sure that's the deadly no-no----do not increase the 2 at the same time.

 

Often you can get away with that correction mid-turn, if you pause on the throttle (hook turn is a good technique to use too).

 

As for how much, I'd be very cautious about experimenting with how much.

 

Do you recall last year when Marquez won the title, and both Rossi and Lorenzo crashed? I think it was Japan. To my eye it looked to me that they both added some throttle and lean angle mid-turn.

 

Have you done Level 2, and the Pick Up technique trained there? If so, then adding throttle and lean is the opposite of that.

 

Help?

 

CF

[StevenAthas]

Hey guys,

 

Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond to my questions. I totally agree with you both that lean angle and throttle shouldn't be added concurrently but my question is while maintaining throttle, can lean angle be added by countersteering a bit more? So basically not rolling on anymore, only keeping the throttle maintained. Are you saying that the throttle would need to be completely off in order to add additional lean angle?The hook turn has been very helpful but it doesn't quite finish the turn as tight as I'd like some of the time. I find that I go wide. In my mind it feels like if I were to be able to add some input on the handle bars in these moments and countersteer the bike into a deeper lean angle, it'd get the job done more efficiently, I just don't want to compromise traction, so I just use the hook turn to tighten the turn.

 

Would maintainence throttle be an okay instance where I'd be able to countersteer the bike to initiate more lean angle?

 

This is all of course based on ideal conditions: clean, dry race track..

 

I feel like maybe I'm not explaining it well.

 

Thank you again for the input, I really appreciate it!

[Jaybird180]

May I suggest that the issue isn't the need to tighten the line, but something going on with line selection and plan execution? Otherwise, what are the reasons why someone would want to tighten a line mid-corner? Immediately what comes to mind are decreasing radius (DR) turns, but I'm sure there are other reasons....

 

In a DR, adding another steering input is necessary because it's really 2 turns in rapid succession. Is your speed and trajectory set for the 2nd turn or are all of your eggs in the 1st turn's basket?

 

Is the bike's steering geometry working for or against you? How do you change the equation?

[StevenAthas]

May I suggest that the issue isn't the need to tighten the line, but something going on with line selection and plan execution? Otherwise, what are the reasons why someone would want to tighten a line mid-corner? Immediately what comes to mind are decreasing radius (DR) turns, but I'm sure there are other reasons....

 

In a DR, adding another steering input is necessary because it's really 2 turns in rapid succession. Is your speed and trajectory set for the 2nd turn or are all of your eggs in the 1st turn's basket?

 

Is the bike's steering geometry working for or against you? How do you change the equation?

 

 

Okay.. I see what you're saying. So lets use DR turns as the main focus (since it's basically achieving the same end goal). While leaned over, not maxed out lean.. to hit the apex of that second turn; countersteer or hook turn?

[Jaybird180]

For a DR, are there any other tools we might want to consider putting on the table? Just so that we have a full smorgasbord to choose from.

 

Don't mean to widen the scope, as narrow scopes are nearly always best, but are there any other situations where it would be helpful to change lines?

[StevenAthas]

For a DR, are there any other tools we might want to consider putting on the table? Just so that we have a full smorgasbord to choose from.

 

Don't mean to widen the scope, as narrow scopes are nearly always best, but are there any other situations where it would be helpful to change lines?

 

What other tools are you referring to? I'm not much of a fan of using rear brake mid turn to tighten the line, if that's what you mean.. I don't really use rear brake at all actually (maybe not a good thing).

 

Passing another rider, debris on the track.. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to change your line, is there a specific instance you're eluding to?

[bashir0505]

 

Passing another rider, debris on the track.. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons to change your line, is there a specific instance you're eluding to?

 

 

I'm really interested in this topic as well. Steven if you don't mind, I'd like to add the instance that I think this also applies: Hairpins.

 

Generally, there are 2 lines through a hairpin. Some go in wide and apex once on the exit, while some people 2-apex it. In order to 2-apex the hairpin at my local track, it is treated as 2 separate turns with an emphasis on the exit drive.

 

My school training makes me want to go in wide, turn once and hit the late apex, but all the faster riders treat it as 2 corners and make a steering change on the second half to square up the corner and get the drive out like a 1000cc should be picked up.

 

My fear is that if you are adding throttle through the turn, the act of pausing the roll on may upset the bike. Then again by pausing the roll on gently, it would shift the weight to the front, thereby changing the geometry and helping you turn further if you wish to quick turn more. Then continue the roll on when the final steering input is done.

 

So to continue with Steven's question, what is the best technique to lean in further (intentionally) while mid corner and beyond the turning efficiency of a hook turn?

[Cobie Fair]

In most instances, adding a little more lean angle, can be gotten away with. I say "most." If a rider is already at the limit of lean for that bike/tire, then obviously that won't work--or if the conditions necessary for traction are not there: like is the tire warmed up enough, surface grippy, etc.

 

If they are, then pausing on the throttle can work.

 

Would this be similar to how to handle a genuine double apex turn?

[bashir0505]

In most instances, adding a little more lean angle, can be gotten away with. I say "most." If a rider is already at the limit of lean for that bike/tire, then obviously that won't work--or if the conditions necessary for traction are not there: like is the tire warmed up enough, surface grippy, etc.

 

If they are, then pausing on the throttle can work.

 

Would this be similar to how to handle a genuine double apex turn?

 

Most certainly. The nature of the hairpin I'm referring to resembles a double apex.

If I may quote TOTW2 without getting sued:

"In a double-apex turn you may well roll off the gas to get the bike turned between the two parts of the corner. This allows you to fully and correctly control the throttle on the exit* of the second part of the corner and not be "stuck" with holding the gas steady. In fact, "stuck on the gas" is one of the primary indicators that you have a "bad line". Of course! It violates the throttle rule."

1) Is this saying it's better to roll off the gas completely to turn into the second apex? Then of course start adding throttle after turn in.

2) The second part of the paragraph... is it saying that if you need to stay on the gas in-between both apexes, then one should try a different line that allows for a full roll off as you position for the second apex?

[Cobie Fair]

Bashir,

 

In 1 above: it might be needed to roll off...true double apex is in essence 2 turns. Some might just need to pause on the throttle.

In 2 above: have a look at your quote from T2--he's talking about fully and correctly control the throttle at the exit.

 

Make sense?

 

CF

[bashir0505]

I think so. I'll find out how it feels when I get to the track in a couple of months.

[Lnewqban]

........

 

while I am maintaining throttle, in say a 40 degree lean angle, can I countersteer further? Does the rate of speed matter (Am I able to at 50mph and not at 100mph)?

........

 

I know that counterseering is used to set lean angle at the beginning of the turn, but is it smart to do it mid corner as long as you aren't on the gas? And where's the limit?

Counter-steering always work.

It is the only effective and quick way that we have to get the bike out of a lean at the end of a turn.

 

As we push one side of the handlebar, we force the front tire to deviate its trajectory, which consumes some available traction.

That deviation (in degrees) is very small, sometimes imperceptible.

What consumes more or less traction is the speed of our input.

 

The quickflick technique uses a lot of traction, but that is not a problem when the bike is near vertical.

The key for keeping traction at 40 degree lean is to be smooth on the contersteering input.

 

Please, read this:

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3723

 

50 mph or 100 mph?

The cornering forces on the contact patches are not determined only by the speed of the bike, but by the combination of speed and radius of turn.

Any combination of those that forces you to lean 45 degrees, loads the contact patches with a lateral (sliding) force equal to the weight of your bike and yours (ideally 40% of the total weight on the front and 60% on the rear contact patch).

 

As discussed above, slowing the bike down will make you fall into the turn, naturally reducing the radius of turn.

However, that technique is less effective than counter-steering for high speeds (lean angle increases vaguely or slowly) and much braking load may be put on the contact patches.

[AdamZisa]

This discussion helped with my visuals. I will be practicing some of these at Chuckwalla this weekend. Thank you! 

It kept me awake last night if in a double apex, do you stand it up to reset lean angle? I guess you have multiple options. Pausing on the throttle would allow you to slow a bit, or coming off the throttle to add more lean angle, then back on the throttle. 

Do we need to stand it completely vertical again to reset before the next turn? It seems obvious that the answer would be no (too many forces, suspension getting tossed around, does not look clean). But I would like to know!

[Hotfoot]

On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 9:15 AM, AdamZisa said:

This discussion helped with my visuals. I will be practicing some of these at Chuckwalla this weekend. Thank you! 

It kept me awake last night if in a double apex, do you stand it up to reset lean angle? I guess you have multiple options. Pausing on the throttle would allow you to slow a bit, or coming off the throttle to add more lean angle, then back on the throttle. 

Do we need to stand it completely vertical again to reset before the next turn? It seems obvious that the answer would be no (too many forces, suspension getting tossed around, does not look clean). But I would like to know!

What is the logic behind feeling like you'd need to stand the bike up before leaning it again, or where did the idea come from? Are you talking about a turn where you would need to brake hard before the second steering input?

[Jaybird180]

I’m interested too since I’ve seen faster riders do this in sections like 7,8,9 at NJMP Thunderbolt.

[AdamZisa]

On 10/26/2017 at 9:14 AM, Hotfoot said:

What is the logic behind feeling like you'd need to stand the bike up before leaning it again, or where did the idea come from? Are you talking about a turn where you would need to brake hard before the second steering input?

Sorry for the wayyyy late response.

The idea came from seeing riders faster than myself lean through a turn, do a pick up, and go into the next turn. BUT! Then I noticed other riders approach a double apex by leaning through the first turn, and then it appears they never reset like they are doing one continuous arch. 

After thinking about it, it takes less time and less movement by using the latter option. As you are approaching your next turn point for the double apex, the rider can come off the throttle lean further, and then get back on the throttle again. Or, the rider could attempt to hook turn. 

I attempted both at Arizona Motorsports park. I was much faster by NOT standing the bike up again for the second apex. It demanded too much attention to stand it back up before leaning again. When I watch riders like Benny Solis at Chuckwalla, the dude is completely leaned over all of the time UNLESS it is a straight. It does not appear that he resets mid turn by standing it up. 

[mugget]

On 1/21/2017 at 4:33 AM, StevenAthas said:

 

I'm not much of a fan of using rear brake mid turn to tighten the line, if that's what you mean.. I don't really use rear brake at all actually (maybe not a good thing).

This point caught my attention... how many people actually use the rear brake to tighten their line?? No one. Rear brake does not tighten line, if it seems that way it's because there is always additional rider input beyond simple rear brake actuation - such as body position change, handle bar input etc. So don't worry, you're not doing anything wrong and you're not missing out on anything. 

 

On the point of not having confidence in the front tyre - if you look at any mid-corner crash that doesn't involve throttle, there is almost always brake involved. Therefore if you remove the use of brakes, you remove a big portion of any chance of error. Taking it a step further - do you know how quickly you can steer the bike (given dry & smooth track, warm tyres, etc.)? You can steer it as fast as you want and the front won't give out/fold/slide. What will happen is that the rear will slide when you start to get to that limit. So if you're steering as fast as you can and there's no hint of the rear sliding, you are safe. Actually I think Keith Code has said that he's tried to crash a bike by using a "too fast" steering rate and he couldn't do it. So that should give you some confidence! 

Taking that and applying it to a double apex/hairpin type situation, if you remove the main danger (brakes), and you know that you can use as quick a steering rate as you want it opens up a whole world of possibilities. You can carry more speed into the turn, stay out wide and basically ignore the first "apex", it will set you up for a good exit. At least that's my approach now and it's helped a lot! I was in the habit of treating these types of turns as 2 separate turns with additional steering input in the middle, now it's so much easier when you can ride it as a single turn with one smooth steering input. If there is slightly more distance between the "2 apexes" it might mean that you need to tighten your line, but this is more of a continued steering input, definitely no brake or throttle in the middle. For this approach to really work it does mean that you need to carry a lot of speed into the turn, possibly a lot more than you're used to, but just remember that the very act of turning will reduce your speed and tighten your line, and you also have the option to tighten your line with line with continuous steering input as well as technique such as hook turn - when you put all of that together you can really start riding some much smoother and easier lines.

[faffi]

On 4/22/2018 at 12:31 AM, mugget said:

... how many people actually use the rear brake to tighten their line?? No one. Rear brake does not tighten line, if it seems that way it's because there is always additional rider input beyond simple rear brake actuation - such as body position change, handle bar input etc. So don't worry, you're not doing anything wrong and you're not missing out on anything. 

 

 

 

I cannot really debate this, by my personal experience indicate that my line will tighten with a dab on the rear brake and widen by adding throttle. Whether this is due to other influences that comes as a result of my actions, I cannot tell, but the net effect for me is that a bit of rear brake does tighten my line. A bit like does it matter if you get well through placebo or medication, as long as you get well? ?

 

Personally, I have never had any reserve against adding more lean mid-corner when required, even quite rapid changes. And I've never had a slide as a result, either. I am far more concerned about turning quickly when upright, probably because I've done so under heavy braking and possibly less than perfect traction conditions and experienced a few slides. I realize that my actions are not rational, that turning in should give more grip than turning in more at 35 degrees of lean, but something has become wired wrongly in my brain that is difficult to sort ?