Are you the soft of hard type?

[faffi]

From the 1:02 to 2:28 is the part of interest (hope the time stamp made it over) for the topic. I do know my own preference to the point that I find one end of the spectrum ruining and the other end bliss.

 

 

More specific on how to test a tire's construction

 

[Cobie Fair]

In the first video, talking about soft v. hard carcasses...one thing not mentioned was that often the suspension can be tuned to compensate for the difference.

[Cobie Fair]

2nd video, I do like his advice on getting more info.

[faffi]

Personally, I dislike the constant messaging about what is going on between tire and road. I do not want any of it, actually, so that the only thing I will feel is a reduction in grip.

[Cobie Fair]

I've heard a few guys comment about feel, and really wanting to know what the front is doing, as they progressively corner faster.

[faffi]

Some seems to relax if they get a ton of information from the tires, others get stressed by it. Luca Cadalora was a rider who only wanted to know about significant issues like actual loss of grip, but I am not sure if he is typical or atypical when it comes to top level racers. Watching how soft current MotoGP tires are, it would seem difficult to get a ton of information about tiny imperfections through them, but I have no idea, really.  

[Hotfoot]

13 hours ago, faffi said:

Watching how soft current MotoGP tires are, it would seem difficult to get a ton of information about tiny imperfections through them, but I have no idea, really.  

When you say 'how soft MotoGP tires are', are you talking about the stiffness/flexibility of the carcass, or the softness/stickiness of the rubber compound? (I have not yet watched the videos you posted so excuse me if the question was somehow answered by those.)

[faffi]

I am talking about the flexibility of the carcass.

[Hotfoot]

Personally, I prefer a softer carcass and a more rounded profile for the tire. That's partly because I am a smaller rider and most bike's suspensions are too stiff for me anyway so the softer tire helps absorb some of that, but it is also because I like to feel the tire react - I like to feel the tire "set" in the corner, and feel it compress under acceleration. I do not like to feel rigidity or vibrations, or feel like the tire isn't reacting or won't compress, that sort of feedback tends to make me feel like the tire is cold or has too much air pressure and won't have adequate grip, so I am more tentative and don't load it enough for it to really work well. If I am SURE it is OK - like on warmed up Dunlop GPA tires, which have amazing grip, then I can push through that mental barrier and can appreciate the stability of the stiffer carcass under very hard braking and acceleration. But I prefer to ride with a smoother style so I don't miss it if the stiffness/stability is not there, I rarely brake/accelerate with that extreme force unless I am following someone who DOES ride with that sort of style and get (sort of) forced into it.

What is it that makes you say "how soft MotoGP tires are"? Are you saying that because Michelins have a reputation for being softer than some others, or is that something that was said or  written or published somewhere, that current MotoGP tire carcasses are softer right now than in the past?

[faffi]

They often send slow-mo with 1000fps of how the tires move during a race or practice session on TV, and it is amazing how much the tires deform and change shape constantly, especially over rumble strips. If they slow the footage real down and the light is good, you can see it really clearly. This probably has as much to do with the low pressure as with the tire construction.

[Hotfoot]

Interesting to hear that; in local racing it seems like the trend has been headed towards stiffer and stiffer tire carcasses (with lower air pressure, especially in the rear tire) instead of towards a softer carcass. 

It's too bad we don't have that same sort of super slo-mo footage from 20 years ago to see the difference in tire deformation compared to back then. 

[Spinto]

racing regionally i used Dunlop Ntechs...exclusively....hard carcas.....better feel for me. Racing our National series, we were forced to use Pirelli. Soft Carcas....worked well until they let go and you're thrown off the track.

[Cobie Fair]

There is a great shot in the Twist 2 video of a wheelie coming down, and how much the tire deforms...

[yakaru]

On 5/4/2020 at 10:32 AM, Spinto said:

racing regionally i used Dunlop Ntechs...exclusively....hard carcas.....better feel for me. Racing our National series, we were forced to use Pirelli. Soft Carcas....worked well until they let go and you're thrown off the track.

Something I've heard before is that with the Pirelli's you're "being held up by the hand of god... until you aren't." I love my sport-touring Pirellis though, I'll say that, but very different use case.

[Spinto]

24 minutes ago, yakaru said:

Something I've heard before is that with the Pirelli's you're "being held up by the hand of god... until you aren't." I love my sport-touring Pirellis though, I'll say that, but very different use case.

i get the same race feel from the Ntechs.....if you can't trust your tires....or feel them....you won't go as fast.  Sport touring tires....pilot road 5s.....what are is your race bike? street ride?

[yakaru]

3 hours ago, Spinto said:

i get the same race feel from the Ntechs.....if you can't trust your tires....or feel them....you won't go as fast.  Sport touring tires....pilot road 5s.....what are is your race bike? street ride?

I have a Ninja 300 for the street (running Perelli sport demons), track & race wise I have another Ninja 300, S1000RR, and an HP4R, mostly on Dunlops.

[Cobie Fair]

Yakaru,

How do you like that 300 for the street?  I normally want a little more torque, but that's mostly cause I'm lazy and don't want to shift that much.

[yakaru]

1 hour ago, Cobie Fair said:

Yakaru,

How do you like that 300 for the street?  I normally want a little more torque, but that's mostly cause I'm lazy and don't want to shift that much.

Yeah, it definitely makes you use the gear box more -- though I notice that more on the track than on the street where being a bit out of the power band is okay as well as generally being able to maintain speed when you're just going down major roads. I'm pretty happy with it -- I've only taken bigger bikes out on the street in special circumstances (e.g. rentals on vacation, borrowing a friend's bike for some reason) but I usually find that I don't have much use for the extra power other than just being lazier with shifts but maybe that would change if I rode one more consistently on the street. It actually took me a number of school days over a couple years at the Ridge (2014-2015 I think) until I would hit the throttle stop on the front straight on the S1000 because I'd gotten used to it just being a thing that took a long time on the 300.

[Cobie Fair]

For me it's a slight safety factor...I want to be able to move quickly if I need to.  Good visual skills trump all for street safety, it wouldn't keep me from riding a small bike..being lazy might :).

[Apollo]

9 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

Yakaru,

How do you like that 300 for the street?  I normally want a little more torque, but that's mostly cause I'm lazy and don't want to shift that much.

Another street 300 person here. I had a 300 for my street bike for 3 years, after two 600 supersports and before an 1100 Hypermotard and a 1200 Thruxton R. 

Compared to a bigger bike, the 300 does require more awareness of what gear you're in to ensure you don't bog if you need sudden acceleration. One will definitely shift a lot more than an S1000RR on the street that only needs first and second gear. That being said, I really enjoyed my 300 and never found it lacking at reasonable street speeds below 100mph. It does significantly better at freeway speeds than the old 250s. 

In terms of acceleration for real world street situations, I never ran into any issues of wanting more except for coming off a stop light next to a bigger bike. The light weight made it a cinch to move around. To be honest, I don't think the 300 lacks much in terms of usability. But I also prefer a short geared street bike so that I am engaged and rowing through the gearbox. Personally, a liter bike on the street was one of the most boring in-town/canyon scoots I've tried since second gear was already "significant trouble." The only reason I sold my 300 was to get a Hypermotard 1100, and I regretted that decision. 

 

[faffi]

I began my city riding days on a limited Honda CB100 back in 1980. The law back then said no more than 7 hp and no more than 50 mph top speed for motorcycles operated by people aged 16-18. From 18-up you could ride unlimited bikes. Statistically, the less powerful bikes are also involved in fewer accidents than high powered bikes.

Anyhoo, my riding naturally had to evolve around low power and slow acceleration. Since then, I have never felt the need for lots of power, especially during city riding. If I would have to rely on surplous power to keep me safe, I would consider I had already placed myself in a vulnerable situation. I keep the revs in the lower half of the range, usually the lower 1/3, and expect every driver considering me their target. Despite a history of road crashes (due to knowingly overriding the conditions in rural areas) I rarely find myself under stress in dense traffic, regardless of what I am riding.

 

[faffi]

As to small bikes - I think I have mentioned it once or twice before, but Kenny Roberts Sr's favourite street bike back around 1985 was a Yamaha 250 Phazer. That was both down to its handling, at the time as close as he could get to his race bikes, and the lack of power that demanded a very high level of accuracy in order to maintain a fast average pace.

[Cobie Fair]

Good to hear this, maybe I'll get a leg over a modern 300, give it a go!

[yakaru]

On 5/15/2020 at 2:56 PM, Cobie Fair said:

Good to hear this, maybe I'll get a leg over a modern 300, give it a go!

Push comes to shove I'll have mine with me at the Ridge and for the the October school set around Code RACE if you want to give it a spin (Streets was super fun when I took my 300 on it this March)

[Hotfoot]

That reminds me, you were debating before the last CodeRace which bike you wanted to take and what you wanted to race. What did you end up doing and what was your final take on one versus the other?