aslcbr600

Do you have a link to the video? There are so many crash videos I don't know which one it is lol

Interesting, I will have to see if I can track it down and take a look at it!

A bit late getting to this thread, did you guys already talk about simply make any shifts w/out the clutch? CF lol yea man you are way late!

Ha! I wish I could do it in more aggressive situations, in the frozen north riding season is pretty much on it's last leg. No trackdays or anything, however I will be waiting for the 2013 CSS schedule to come out so I can book my first Level 1 class and a Level 2 class. So I guess I will have to practice it there when I get the chance. I eat, sleep and breathe this stuff so I doubt I will get rusty in between classes during the winter but one can only hope lol. I think trailbraking is a great tool to have, granted it's not the fastest drive out of the corner process but in RACING applications it for sure has it's uses. There is no one way to ride, you have to find that balance between what is best suggested and what also works for you! None of the GP riders ride the exact same, if they did there would be no competition. For me pumping the clutch just doesn't work, I have tried it and even with my adjustable levers maxed out I still can't manage to not squish my fingers while pulling the clutch lever in. Cool to see that you went out there and tried something to see how it worked for you though, that's all you can do to find what works best for each rider!

Well what works for some doesn't work for others, that's what makes each rider unique in their own way! Me personally I like this much better because it's one less lever I have to pull and coordinate.

I didn't miss the post or the quote. Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique. I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. WHEN: The blip happens simultaneously with the shift. If you do it too early, you will feel the bike surge forward, if you do it too late the bike won't shift. HOW: Blip right when you shift, and just enough to match the RPM to where it would be in the lower gear. You will have to experiment with it to get it right for your bike. Too MUCH blip will make the bike accelerate (not desirable if you are TRYING to slow down for an upcoming turn) and it may not shift. If you don't blip enough, it just won't shift. (Finer point: if you blip a little too much, the RPMs go a little too high, but the bike might still shift, if you catch the sweet spot as the RPMs are going up or going down. So if you get the downshift but the bike jerks forward a little AFTERWARDS, the blip was a bit too much and probably a little late compared to your throttle action.) When you shift without the clutch the RPMs don't have time to fall very far like they do when you pull in the clutch. So It doesn't take much of a blip to get it to shift, when you are cruising along at a relatively low RPM - just enough to take the load off the gears. However, if you have the bike wound up to a high RPM AND you are braking hard and decelerating rapidly, the RPMs are already going down quickly, the load on the gears is much higher, and it takes a more significant blip to match the RPM on the downshift. In the CSS demo videos, Will is riding faster and braking harder so you can really hear the blip. haha you beat me to it! Although your explanation is much more detailed!

I didn't miss the post or the quote. Sorry, I simply cannot see the blip anywhere in the video, just the simultaneous roll-off / shift that Hotfoot explained as the first step to practice the technique. I would like to learn how and when the throttle blip should be. The technique is right when you roll off is to shift then blip the throttle...now when you watch the video you will see me blip the throttle, you can see me bring the throttle back in. I am not just rolling off and downshifting and then letting the engine catch up the wheel speed. This would have a violent jerking motion, it may not be very obvious because I was at lower RPM's in higher gears. The blip isn't a huge rev or anything it's just a quick and small twist of the throttle. The best example of this is at the end of the video when I am braking, if I weren't blipping the throttle the bike would bog down and it would be a very jerky and unstable braking process. Are you getting the blip confused with when you use the clutch? If you pull the clutch in you have to make the blip more obvious because when you pull the clutch in you lose a lot of RPM so it's that much harder you have to blip the throttle... I hope I explained this well enough?

Just to better understand: aslcbr600's video does not show the added blip. Am I correct? If so, when exactly the blip takes place? I think your missing a post here...... quoted from Hotfoot: "Sounds like you've got it figured out! The ones on the video sounded good, and yes it takes some practice to coordinate it, it's definitely a bit of reprogramming. Great job getting out there and trying it out, and thanks for posting up the video!"

Sounds like you've got it figured out! The ones on the video sounded good, and yes it takes some practice to coordinate it, it's definitely a bit of reprogramming. Great job getting out there and trying it out, and thanks for posting up the video! Thank you! You really helped me out with this! I am glad the video worked out because as you know it's better to show something then to explain it with things like this lol.

Well that is all they fight for is that tenth of a second, I remember hearing Ben Spies saying that you will never have a bike that does everything perfect. You run a lap and it feels great through this section and then the next section feels unrideable. Since their tolerances are so tight their gripes will be bigger....not to take anything away from them but Pedrosa was saying he was getting tons of chatter but yet still won the race this last round. I think what were used to seeing a big decrease when something is wrong and when they lose a tenth we think "pssshhh cmon now" however that tenth is a huge deal at that level. Just my thoughts on it anyway.

I am sure this is common when practicing this but I REALLY have to focus when doing this, if I were to race tomorrow I certainly wouldn't be using this technique because it would make me a lot slower because I would feel so rushed to brake and still do it correctly. However with plenty of practice and working my way up I feel like this is a great technique and honestly for me personally I feel that it's easier to rev match without using the clutch vs using the clutch because like you said you lose so much RPM. Once you get the feeling for how hard you have to blip the throttle in each gear it will make you a lot smoother. I did have a couple jerky ones but that was because I didn't have the blip quite right. This is only my second time out practicing this so I am still learning for sure! The other thing I started doing was I would set a marker for myself and once I got to that marker I would downshift to help get me in that on demand mindset rather then whenever I feel comfortable.

No I was only clutching the upshifts because I wanted to focus on the downshifting, I have a quick shifter so there isn't any real point for me to practice clutchless upshifting. Yea at the end I wasn't purposely banging down the gears just trying to be as smooth as possible.

Here is my video of me practicing clutchless downshifting, I only used the clutch on upshifts. I already have my input on the video but I want to see what you guys think first. I edited the video so you don't have to worry about skipping through it. At the end of the video I added some braking and faster downshifts. Thanks for watching! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-6bDY6qf6U

At what point are you turning in? It sounds like your turning in too early....

Ha ha....he endo'd it, no? Oops. "Yeah, I put in the super aggressive racing pads...but then I forgot they were in there...." lol....I guess so!

It's not particularly well organized. It's by date, on my riding notes, and by track for maps and laptimes. The maintenance records are just listed by category (tires, engine, transmission, fuel) then a list of dates of when any major maintenance was done or changes made. Now I've starting keeping that info in a note on my iPhone, so I have part numbers for tires, etc. right at hand any time I needed it. I also keep a note on my phone with my best-ever laptime at each track, because it feels so good when I get to update it! Funny you asked about a program to organize this info, I posted a question on the WERA race forum asking if anyone knew an iPhone app for tracking race bike maintenance records and they jumped ALL over me asking what's wrong with good old pencil and paper! I think you should create an app for us.... Yea I am not one for creating software lol I can learn how to use them but that is the gist of it!

The slipper clutch really kicks in if you hold the clutch in so long that the RPMs really drop, then let the clutch out quickly - it will keep your rear tire from locking up (hypothetically) while the engine speed catches back up to wheel speed. I honestly don't know whether it would make any difference on clutchless shifts at all; I ride bikes with both the slipper clutch and without, I can't tell any difference. The only time I notice the slipper is if I use the clutch to downshift, which I really only do if I've made a gigantic error and I'm trying to recover. Before I learned clutchless downshifting I thought the slipper clutch was a godsend but now I am just fine riding a bike without one. The only time I've ever had any grinding or scary shifts was when I tried to lightly feather the clutch, pulling it only partway in, and shifting. You can get some gnarly sounds doing that, if you arent quick enough or screw up the blip. I've also heard of people doing damage by pre-loading the shifter (Will HATES it when people do that) or stomping down hard on the shifter to try to force it - that can bend the lever. But a regular clutchless downshift should just click right in, no drama. On every bike I've ridden (which includes dirt bikes, a cruiser and even my little old YSR) it either shifts, or it doesn't. If you get the timing wrong it just won't change. This is just my opinion and my personal experience but I think the easiest and safest way to to it is the way I described earlier in the thread - in a high gear, at low rpm, accelerate, then left off the throttle and RIGHT when you let off, downshift. It should just drop right into the lower gear. After you get that timing, you can go back and add the blip so you can shift while slowing down. Ah gotcha! So the slipper clutch isn't a "must have" unless your using the clutch.....If I get another chance to get out there and try it providing weather I will take the gopro out and mount it so you can see the tach and practice what you said and report back with the video.

Yea I have watched that video and it is impressive. Hotfoot- Would you say it would be better to use the clutch method until I have a slipper clutch installed to reduce risk of damaging anything?

I have thought about going to the foam seat style as well on my race bike. The OEM seat for the Triumph 675 sits up really high on the back side of the seat so when you tuck in on the fast straights your butt doesn't feel firmly planted up against the back of the tail section. Plus on braking I always slide forward even when gripping the tank, although of course this would require me to get a new tail section as well.

Wow that's awesome! A much safer way to get the most out of your tire!

Do you have a slipper clutch on your R6?

Downfall of rolling off the throttle is it brakes throttle control rule and you lose exit speed. Thus the hook turn in my opinion would be a much better option then rolling off the throttle unless you have no other choice....if it were roll off or hit the ditch obviously I would rather take the exit speed but it's not a good habit to get into lol. Were out there to win right!!! Well at least I am anyway haha

Yea that's the first video that came to mind that you posted, going down gears that fast would be pretty hard to not lock up the rear tire without a slipper clutch if at all possible? Looks like pumping the clutch and a slipper clutch would do more then risking improper clutchless downshifts at hard braking levels.

Something you should pay attention to is what KC says about learning something new or becoming better something...."in order to become better you must ride at 75% of your limit". Certainly lean angle doesn't justify bike control....you can have horrible body position and scrape your footpegs on the pavement. I would have to say sloooooooowwwwwww down dude before you hurt yourself on that bike!

2-finger clutching on downshifts was explained to me at a local instructional riding course like this: You only need 2 fingers to get the clutch lever in just enough to unload the transmission enough to safely and smoothly downshift. That leaves more fingers for holding on to the bars and less total movement from your hand to get down to the correct gear while you're approaching a corner. (This came up at the end of the day, so I haven't practiced it yet.) I suspect that by the time your lever is in close enough to pinch your other fingers, your transmission is unloaded enough to downshift so the pinching is not really a problem. That's just speculation, though. Note that 2-finger clutching would probably not work for holding in the clutch at a red light and easing it out in 1st gear when that light turns green, but that's OK - that's not what it's for. Overall, I fail to see how clutchless downshifting is really going to be worth it for most riders, especially those without a slipper clutch. If you get it wrong, it's hard on the transmission and upsets the bike as you're setting up for the corner. If you get it right, you've saved yourself the very minimal time and attention it takes to pull a lever in and let it out quickly. No real bang for the buck there, unless your bike's slipper and transmission really don't care either way. *shrug* Plus, using a clutch to downshift gives you a little emergency buffer if you screw up the throttle blip. (And no, I'm not talking about intentionally and regularly hiding a lazy blip by letting the throttle back out slowly - that's just a crutch.) I like your view on this, I was watching the last GP race in Japan and Lorenzo was pumping the clutch on his fast downshifts. It's your statement about the room for error if you still pull the clutch in because those GP bikes have slipper clutches and they don't need to use the clutch but it seems like most still do. Maybe it's just habit from over the past years of racing and used to older technology? Now that I am starting to see the bigger picture of what a GP bike is I tend to stay within reason of what they do and how I can practice it or apply it to my riding simply because their bike technology is out of this world. I was playing around with some adjustments and may have found the sweet spot where I can 2 finger the clutch without pinching my fingers so badly. Since my hands are smaller it's going to take some conditioning on my left hand/ forearm to pump that clutch quickly without getting tired since I have to reach out a little further to pull the lever in. I guess if you had a slipper clutch and you stayed very dedicated to practicing it you could be a little faster then someone pumping the clutch but in the novice club racing world I find it hard to believe that difference in time between the two will depict a win or loss.