Quick Turns

[Jaybird180]

Hello Forum

 

This week, I hope that we can discuss quick turns. I hope that we can also get some good discussion going about it, as Keith Code says that it is 'the key to corner entry speed. Period.'

 

I was thinking about this point as I was watching a MotoGP 125 race. They didn't seem to be turning "that" fast to me, but hey it was on TeeVee.

 

Can someone along with the discussion of quick turn entries (quick flick) discuss their relationship to the quick 'unflick'?

[hubbard_28]

One of the things always on the back of my mind is the pic on page 66 of TOTW 2, where it shows the pro's dip their bikes at a phenomenal speed. I work on it, for the most part, but in a back and forth type corner, I focus on smoothness. I don't want to sacrifice that for the potential of unsettling the bike just to maybe go a little faster. I'll get faster as long as I work on it, and stay out of the bikes way. I was also thinking of the Rossi video posted earlier, where Rossi shifts from one corner to another, and think I do it similarly, and can't wait to get out to the track (Dec 14th is my next opportunity) to see exactly how I do it.

Entering a corner, I get the bulk of my braking out of the way, shift my weight while I finish setting my corner entry speed, and dip into the corner. When I lean, my primary goal is to hold the bike up, increasing my potential lean angle, and I keep my weight close to the side of the bike as to not interfere with the bikes cornering. It's worked well so far, and every time I successfully implement something I've been coached to do, I recognize how much smoother the bike is. Hopefully I'm doing it right, but the BP I've adjusted to so far seems to make the bike run better.

The first thing I was taught was to get my chest on the tank, and I was alright doing it,

but once I got over to the side, it started cornering just that much smoother, and a the bike stays over better, particularly on the longer corners.

 

I think these pics are on the same corner, and the difference is subtle, but noticeable.

[racer]

Hi Hub,

 

Your body position looks better in the second photo. Less crossed-up and more parallel than in the first photo.

 

racer

[Cobie Fair]

Hello Forum

 

This week, I hope that we can discuss quick turns. I hope that we can also get some good discussion going about it, as Keith Code says that it is 'the key to corner entry speed. Period.'

 

I was thinking about this point as I was watching a MotoGP 125 race. They didn't seem to be turning "that" fast to me, but hey it was on TeeVee.

 

Can someone along with the discussion of quick turn entries (quick flick) discuss their relationship to the quick 'unflick'?

 

JB,

 

OK, have a look at some tracing, and time how long it takes the top riders to turn the bike. Then, take a look at how long an average street rider takes to turn a bike.

 

It too cold, and no one riding where you are, not sure how you might be able to do this though, unless you can find some riding footabe somewhere.

 

CF

[Jaybird180]

Is it possible (even theoretically possible) with modern tires to flick a bike too fast, causing a crash?

[fire337]

Is it possible (even theoretically possible) with modern tires to flick a bike too fast, causing a crash?

 

 

When I was at the 2 day camp recently Keith said no, you can't flick it in to fast. The mistake he said people make is, they don't stop counter steering soon enough and literally drive themselves into the ground. So it is a steering error not a matter of throwing the bike into the corner to fast.

[Jaybird180]

The mistake he said people make is, they don't stop counter steering soon enough and literally drive themselves into the ground.

Is that an easy mistake to make? How often does it happen? What causes the error? Wouldn't a knee stop the decent?

[Hotfoot]

Is it possible (even theoretically possible) with modern tires to flick a bike too fast, causing a crash?

 

 

When I was at the 2 day camp recently Keith said no, you can't flick it in to fast. The mistake he said people make is, they don't stop counter steering soon enough and literally drive themselves into the ground. So it is a steering error not a matter of throwing the bike into the corner to fast.

 

I was told the same thing at school, but with the caveat "assuming good traction and warm tires." So of course you don't want to try super-aggressive quick turns in the rain or on your first lap out! Presumably a handful of front brake would limit your quick turn, too.

 

One thing that was a huge "AHA" moment for me about quick turn was when my coach asked me if I was consciously stopping the push on the bars when I reached my desired lean angle. Once I started paying attention to that, my turns got much cleaner and I was able to quick turn with more confidence.

[stuman]

Yup you can sure turn it too quick on cold tire or in the wet...

[Jaybird180]

Yup you can sure turn it too quick on cold tire or in the wet...

Assuming those are not factors....?

[stuman]

I've never seen anyone crash from turning the bike too quick. In fact I've never seen it happen on cold tires or even in the rain.

 

I assume it is theoretically possible, but I don't think anyone would put THAT much force into the bar.

 

I've coached for the school full time for 6 or so years, watch a lot of racing, ride on the street and race a lot, never seen anyone do it.

 

 

 

I've seen people use to much front brake and loose the front. I've seen guys turn the bike to far and loose the front.

 

Never seen anyone loose the front simply because they turned it too fast.

[Bones]

Hello Forum

 

This week, I hope that we can discuss quick turns. I hope that we can also get some good discussion going about it, as Keith Code says that it is 'the key to corner entry speed. Period.'

 

I was thinking about this point as I was watching a MotoGP 125 race. They didn't seem to be turning "that" fast to me, but hey it was on TeeVee.

 

Can someone along with the discussion of quick turn entries (quick flick) discuss their relationship to the quick 'unflick'?

 

What your seeing in the MotoGP 125 I feel is correct. They don't turn that fast (as you will see by the different lines compared to 250GP and MotoGP).

 

With a 125 you have less power, and less weight, so they are trying to carry a lot more corner speed as its more important. The bigger bikes are more turn, point and shoot. The same seems to be the case for the 250's as well.

 

The fastest bike at Phillip Island's turn 10 (MG) is a 125 GP at over 100 kph, while a Superbike is 88 kph.

 

Cheers

[Jaybird180]

I've never seen anyone crash from turning the bike too quick. In fact I've never seen it happen on cold tires or even in the rain.

 

I assume it is theoretically possible, but I don't think anyone would put THAT much force into the bar.

 

I've coached for the school full time for 6 or so years, watch a lot of racing, ride on the street and race a lot, never seen anyone do it.

 

 

 

I've seen people use to much front brake and loose the front. I've seen guys turn the bike to far and loose the front.

 

Never seen anyone loose the front simply because they turned it too fast.

Can you describe what it looks like to turn too far?

[Keith Code]

Hello Forum

 

This week, I hope that we can discuss quick turns. I hope that we can also get some good discussion going about it, as Keith Code says that it is 'the key to corner entry speed. Period.'

 

I was thinking about this point as I was watching a MotoGP 125 race. They didn't seem to be turning "that" fast to me, but hey it was on TeeVee.

 

Can someone along with the discussion of quick turn entries (quick flick) discuss their relationship to the quick 'unflick'?

 

What is a quick unflick?

 

Why would a rider's ability to turn the bike quick enough limit or improve their feel for how much speed they could carry into a corner?

 

What are the factors that determine how quickly you get the bike turned? There are several of them, let's see what kind of list we can make:

 

1. I'll start off...The limit of lean angle for the bike you are riding. That means where you will hit hard parts.

 

Your turns

 

Keith

[Bones]

2. Corner Chamber (positive chamber / up hill - more, negative / down hill - less)

3. Bike Geometry (Steep steering angle / race bike - quicker, long steering angle / chopper - slower)

[Jaybird180]

Hello Forum

 

This week, I hope that we can discuss quick turns. I hope that we can also get some good discussion going about it, as Keith Code says that it is 'the key to corner entry speed. Period.'

 

I was thinking about this point as I was watching a MotoGP 125 race. They didn't seem to be turning "that" fast to me, but hey it was on TeeVee.

 

Can someone along with the discussion of quick turn entries (quick flick) discuss their relationship to the quick 'unflick'?

 

What is a quick unflick?

 

Why would a rider's ability to turn the bike quick enough limit or improve their feel for how much speed they could carry into a corner?

 

What are the factors that determine how quickly you get the bike turned? There are several of them, let's see what kind of list we can make:

 

1. I'll start off...The limit of lean angle for the bike you are riding. That means where you will hit hard parts.

 

Your turns

 

Keith

An "unflick" is my term for standing the bike back up to vertical. Someone (sorry, I don't recall the name) in a previous thread talked about using the brake to purposely high-side himself to vertical in ess sections.

 

As far as the ability to quick turn changing their perception of cornerspeed, I think it would add to their confidence and increase the "in too hot" panic threshold.

[Bones]

4 - Press on the inside handle bar harder to make the bike turn quicker.

[acebobby]

I find that using the two-step drill helps me to use exactly the precise amount of steering required to point the bike in the direction I want it to go, I never really thought of oversreering the bike right into the ground before, I do sometimes wonder how fast it can be done,

When I did my level 1 it was raining and I was amazed at how fast I could do it in the wet and it is something I work on alot now, I always feel that I am holding back a little and would like to do it as fast as I am physically capable to see if it would hold or not but obviously I dont want to crash trying!

[Jaybird180]

I find that using the two-step drill helps me to use exactly the precise amount of steering required to point the bike in the direction I want it to go, I never really thought of oversreering the bike right into the ground before, I do sometimes wonder how fast it can be done,

When I did my level 1 it was raining and I was amazed at how fast I could do it in the wet and it is something I work on alot now, I always feel that I am holding back a little and would like to do it as fast as I am physically capable to see if it would hold or not but obviously I dont want to crash trying!

Inpirational!

[Cobie Fair]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

[Jaybird180]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

And what did you find as a solution to your entry stability problem?

[Cobie Fair]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

And what did you find as a solution to your entry stability problem?

 

The specific thing I noticed was that the bike wiggled/bobbled, whatever you want to call it, right at the end of the steering action, right as I got closest to max lean. It was a little unnerving. I had to learn how to ease back up on the bars. This wasn't just a one-solution fix though, as part of the problem was due to body positioning on the bike, and I wasn't supporting myself correctly with my legs. What Keith developed on the Lean Bike fixed most of it, then easing up on the bars at the end of the steering action.

 

C

[Jaybird180]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

And what did you find as a solution to your entry stability problem?

 

The specific thing I noticed was that the bike wiggled/bobbled, whatever you want to call it, right at the end of the steering action, right as I got closest to max lean. It was a little unnerving. I had to learn how to ease back up on the bars. This wasn't just a one-solution fix though, as part of the problem was due to body positioning on the bike, and I wasn't supporting myself correctly with my legs. What Keith developed on the Lean Bike fixed most of it, then easing up on the bars at the end of the steering action.

 

C

Betcha a dollar cracking the throttle fixed the rest (smile)

[Cobie Fair]

Betcha a dollar cracking the throttle fixed the rest (smile)

 

Well, I was a lot happier by just getting the darn thing not to bobble on me!! Yeah, next comes the gas for sure.

[acebobby]

I remember when I was working on quick steering as the main focus (for sure still work on it). I got to steering OK, but the darn thing would bobble on me at the end of the steering action, and it took a little to sort that out.

And what did you find as a solution to your entry stability problem?

 

The specific thing I noticed was that the bike wiggled/bobbled, whatever you want to call it, right at the end of the steering action, right as I got closest to max lean. It was a little unnerving. I had to learn how to ease back up on the bars. This wasn't just a one-solution fix though, as part of the problem was due to body positioning on the bike, and I wasn't supporting myself correctly with my legs. What Keith developed on the Lean Bike fixed most of it, then easing up on the bars at the end of the steering action.

 

C

 

I think I can relate to that feeling, before I had read TOTW and joined this forum I used to counter steer but not relax when I got leaned over, I would hold some pressure on the inside bar, at the time I thought this was the correct method and would feel that front end wobble all the way through the turn, back then I never got on the gas till the apex either so everything was wrong! Now since learning to relax my grip the bike goes through the turn so much smoother and am able to corner a lot faster than before, the only reason I need my hands on the bars during cornering now is to roll on the throttle! I cant wait to get on the lean bike though!