Available Traction

[stuman]

Good point about the quick turn In shorter corners that is often the limiting factor, In longer corners you have a little more time to search for the limit of tractions.

 

 

 

I like Hotfoot's description as well, the pavement does seems smooth...

 

What I notice first when the front pushes is that the bars feel light. What I mean is when you have lots of front feel an the front has lots of traction the bars feel heavy, there is some resistance to your slightest pressure. When the front pushes there is not more resistant and if feels like the front wheel is kinda floating. When the bars just start to feel a little light it is a god warning. Of course you have to be light of the bars to feel that. If you have a death grip it will be harder to feel.

[Hotfoot]

I thought that 10% slip meant 90% hooked-up. What are you saying now?

 

 

100% hooked up plus 10% slip.

 

Driving home yesterday, saw an older SUV in front of me with a tweaked frame, traveling forward but also sort of sideways, too, because the back was not quite in line with the front. I could see the back of the truck and part of the left side of it. It must be hell on the tires. And then I thought:

 

AHA! 100% hooked up plus 10% slip!

[Hotfoot]

Good point about the quick turn In shorter corners that is often the limiting factor, In longer corners you have a little more time to search for the limit of tractions.

 

 

 

I like Hotfoot's description as well, the pavement does seems smooth...

 

What I notice first when the front pushes is that the bars feel light. What I mean is when you have lots of front feel an the front has lots of traction the bars feel heavy, there is some resistance to your slightest pressure. When the front pushes there is not more resistant and if feels like the front wheel is kinda floating. When the bars just start to feel a little light it is a god warning. Of course you have to be light of the bars to feel that. If you have a death grip it will be harder to feel.

 

And then what to do you do, roll on the gas? Stand the bike up? Hold your breath and repent for your sins?

 

How often are you able to save it when that starts to happen? Are you more likely to be able to save it when it slides in slick conditions when you are going a little slower and more upright to begin with, or do you save it more easily when you are leaned over a lot and going fast? What percentage of the time do you recover it?

 

A magic formula for being aware when the front tire is about to go and a way to react and save it would do wonders for my confidence. I know I should roll on and/or stand it up but never felt like I had enough warning and time to react.

[stuman]

And then what to do you do, roll on the gas? Stand the bike up? Hold your breath and repent for your sins?

 

It may seem strange but, in most cases turn the bars in. Turn the bars so that the front wheel points to the right in a right corner.

 

That is the short answer because I'm tired from riding the BMW S1000RR on the track all day and I want to enjoy my room at the 4 seasons

[Jaybird180]

I thought that 10% slip meant 90% hooked-up. What are you saying now?

 

 

100% hooked up plus 10% slip.

 

Driving home yesterday, saw an older SUV in front of me with a tweaked frame, traveling forward but also sort of sideways, too, because the back was not quite in line with the front. I could see the back of the truck and part of the left side of it. It must be hell on the tires. And then I thought:

 

AHA! 100% hooked up plus 10% slip!

 

 

There always has to be some measure of truth in humor. What percentage is truth and what percentage is humor, Hotfoot?

[Hotfoot]

I thought that 10% slip meant 90% hooked-up. What are you saying now?

 

 

100% hooked up plus 10% slip.

 

Driving home yesterday, saw an older SUV in front of me with a tweaked frame, traveling forward but also sort of sideways, too, because the back was not quite in line with the front. I could see the back of the truck and part of the left side of it. It must be hell on the tires. And then I thought:

 

AHA! 100% hooked up plus 10% slip!

 

 

There always has to be some measure of truth in humor. What percentage is truth and what percentage is humor, Hotfoot?

 

 

100% truth plus 25% humor.

 

If you are really asking whether I'm kidding or not, well, yes, I think it is funny, but it is totally true and it really did help me understand what Stu meant. Because, since that truck was so crooked, it had to be dragging the wheels somewhat sideways, so the tires had to be slipping. But they were still providing all the traction required to push the truck forwards. Not so different on a bike, right? The bike could still be going exactly the direction and speed you want, solid grip on the road, but there is still some slip in the tire. 100% hooked up, plus 10% slip.

[stuman]

Sometimes I feel the slides before they happen, most times I don't. It's just traction, traction, traction, WHOA! what was that?

 

 

This can be related to a setup issue with the bike as well. Adding more trail can help give you more "feel". If the front is super low or the back way jacked up, you loose feel.

[dcougar2u]

Great topic. Last weekend, I entered a long sweeping turn on my favorite ride at my regular entry speed (aggressive, but not unsafe) and, apparently, had a rear slide. There was a patch of dampness on the road just prior to the entry (which I kinda ignored). My video camera was running and a friend was behind me. As I rolled on the throttle, the rear (ever so smoothly) slid out a little (maybe a second in duration). I didn't feel it at all. When we stopped, my friend asked me if I knew my rear slid out (I didn't). When I viewed the video, sure enough, you could see the angle tighten up toward the inside of the curve. Since I didn't feel it, I had no SR's and the bike just handled smoothly (as they tend to do if you let them). I've been thinking about it and am bothered that I couldn't feel it. So, I thought I'd log on the this forum and seek expert advice. Well, what do you know, here's the topic and (as far as I can gather) it's a very elusive thing to feel when it happens so smoothly. Am I right? (I've taken Levels 1-3, feel very comfortable on my bike on my favorite road and think I have good body position and am relaxed on the bars, etc.) Is it more like: I know this turn very well and at this entry speed and this throttle roll-on, I can expect that the bike will start to slide at a certain spot?

[stuman]

I'm surprised you didn't feel the rear move at all if the slide was enough that your friend saw it. Seems like you should have felt something. Anyway, yeah the faster you go through a corner eventually someting has got to give. If you go through this corner all the time and push a little harder each time it will slide at some point.

[faffi]

So I hear/read about how you have to be willing to use all your available traction to go fast. It comes up all the time when talking about braking, how you can only use so much of your max for braking and the rest for turning and stuff.

 

So like, how much traction do you have? How do you know when your using it all?

 

I think this perfectly illustrates how you know when you are using it all and how to save it by staying relaxed and not chopping the throttle

 

[Jaybird180]

In light of this discussion, my latest observation of this save is that the front pushed after Colin was well established and after he was back into the gas. Was this a freak occurrence?

[khp]

In light of this discussion, my latest observation of this save is that the front pushed after Colin was well established and after he was back into the gas. Was this a freak occurrence?

 

My guess is that he was just a tad too greedy with the gas, offloading the front too much causing the front end to slide.

 

 

Kai

[stuman]

I can't tell if he was on the gas or not. Could have happened either way, if He was just in real hot and off the gas the front could push. If he was in to hot and got back on the gas while carrying too much corner speed the front could have pushed as well.

 

It is uncommon to loose the front while on the gas, but it does happen.

[faffi]

To my extremely untrained eye it looks as if he is basically coasting and simply running out of cornering clearance...

[faffi]

I went for a ride yesterday evening. The weather suddenly changed and we got the first balmy day of the year - 16C Lots of wind, too, but it was mild and no problem.

 

My bike is based upon an old Daytona 900, but the tank/seat/rear suspension is from a Thunderbird. 98hp and 260 kg means it's no rocket, but it's still good fun.

 

On a winding section, I quickly caught up to a Hayabusa. The rider was shifting his bum a bit and leaning his torso even more into the corners, whereas I mostly sit there like a sack of potatoes. It surprised me how much lean the 'busa used for the sedate pace, and I guess I must have used something similar. Didn't feel like it.

 

Having dispatched of the Suzuki, I turned it up a notch or 5 to put to use some of what I have learned here lately. It took a bit of time to lift my field of vision - I've always preferred to turn in on the brakes and keep slowing until the apex, and I think the reason has been for not looking far enough ahead. Since I was trying to keep things smooth, using little brakes and rolling on the throttle early, I did hit a few SR moments at first when I looked down and either hit the brakes or chopped the throttle because I was riding differently but still looking like I used to. I did manage to stay mostly relaxed, though - I used to tense my hands very much.

 

Once I managed to look up and relax completely, I got into a nice groove. My bike wears a BT012 rear tyre and a BT001 front in the softest edition. I have zero chicken strips on the rear, but about 1/4 in up front. There is little doubt I could lean over much further, but this is my street riding limit.

 

Finially, the actual point - grip. The amount of grip available on modern tyres is fantastic at my moderate pace. Even leaned over almost to my personal limit - which admittedly isn't all that much - the rear tyre will take full throttle in second gear! Entering the corner with just engine braking or a hint of brakes, then rolling on the throttle smoothly early and then, just as the bike is passing the apex, quickly and smoothly rolling the throttle fully open, redlining 2nd, 3rd, getting into 4th on the short straight before slowing and repeating the process while staying relaxed was a new experience.

 

A very fun experience And this is hopefully just the beginning. I am not a terribly fast rider, and I'm too old to be bothered, but being able to ride reasonably briskly in reasonably safety is my goal. And thanks to TWOW2 and this forum, I may actually reach it some day.

[ozfireblade]

Hey Eirik, If you have zero chicken strips on the rear how can you lean further over? wouldnt that mean you would be on the rim? Could someone please clarify that as I must be not understanding correctly. Nice debreif too

[andrewf125]

Hey Eirik, If you have zero chicken strips on the rear how can you lean further over? wouldnt that mean you would be on the rim? Could someone please clarify that as I must be not understanding correctly. Nice debreif too

 

Even though the rear tire isn't showing chicken strips doesn't mean you can't lean it over more, your contact patch would just be thinner than before. I would imagine the contact patch on the rear tire would keep getting thinner as you keep leaning it over to a point where it begins to slide.

[faffi]

The tyre will also deform and flatten more the further you are leaned over, increasing the actual contact patch greatly over what it would be if the tyre stayed uniform with the shape it has without pressure.

[Crash106]

Hello MotoX Racers,

 

I love sliding around in my car. I don't much like it on my bike. In the car, I'll just abuse the throttle a bit till the back end starts to slip, or crunch on the brakes till the front starts to slide. I have no interest in doing that on my street bike. I've had things slide around on the bike (sand, rain, brakes, throttle), and all my experience sliding the car in the snow and rain makes that less scary, but I've seen plenty of video of people who start to slide and BOOM, down they go. So, if you want to know how much traction you have, my suggestions, and I have zero bike racing experience, is to do everything smoothly, especially when skating on thin ice.

 

Best wishes,

Crash106

[Cobie Fair]

The further over you get, the better one's technique has to be, and the less effective the suspension is. The new BMW's lean into next week, but it's simple the angle of the forces applied. Throttle control, bar input are critical leaned over fully.

 

CF