Jorge Lorenzo Fast In

[Mike3000]

Hi all

 

At Valencia last week Jorge was clearly gaining on everyone else on the entry to the corners and not losing anything in the corner or on the way out.

 

Any ideas how he did that?

[dmj120]

Hi all

 

At Valencia last week Jorge was clearly gaining on everyone else on the entry to the corners and not losing anything in the corner or on the way out.

 

Any ideas how he did that?

 

umm.... cause he gotz sum skizills

 

I'd say it's because he's braking later, but harder. In that, his braking area is shorter although ends ending at that same turn-in point; at which time he is maintaining the same speed as the others.

[Mike3000]

Come on you guys. Here is a guy visibly riding faster than the very best in the world and doing exactly the opposite of what we think is the best way to ride fast?

[Adam06]

Hi Guys,

 

Mike3000 - What is he doing that is "exactly the opposite" of what we think?

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Guys,

 

Mike3000 - What is he doing that is "exactly the opposite" of what we think?

 

Yeah, what do you see as different?

 

Rossi has been incredible at passing for years, and it's clear that he can pass and often still not "blow" the corner, at least enough to not get re-passed, though sometimes this does happen too.

 

CF

[acebobby]

Come on you guys. Here is a guy visibly riding faster than the very best in the world and doing exactly the opposite of what we think is the best way to ride fast?

 

How can you ride faster than the very best in the world when you are actually the very best in the world?

 

Something that Lorenzo does the night before going on tracks is during his stretch routine he visualises lapping the track, every time he crosses the imaginary line he taps the floor, his physical trainer Marcos Hirsch times these taps with a stopwatch. Sound familiar? His lap times are always within 10ths of his actual times.

[dmj120]

Something that Lorenzo does the night before going on tracks is during his stretch routine he visualises lapping the track, every time he crosses the imaginary line he taps the floor, his physical trainer Marcos Hirsch times these taps with a stopwatch. Sound familiar? His lap times are always within 10ths of his actual times.

 

I've never heard about this ritual. Pretty interesting - especially how the close the mental times are to the actual times.

[Mike3000]

Hi Guys,

 

Mike3000 - What is he doing that is "exactly the opposite" of what we think?

He was making all his time on the entry to the corners. We focus on not charging the turns.

[khp]

Mike3000 - What is he doing that is "exactly the opposite" of what we think?

He was making all his time on the entry to the corners. We focus on not charging the turns.

What's the definition of "charging a turn" - and how does that compare to what Lorenzo was doing?

 

 

Kai

[stuman]

So your saying Lorenzo was "charging the turns"? I think we must have a different definition of the term.

[faffi]

My idea of charging the turns would be if it makes you slower. OTOH, I can understand why Mike raises the questions; I'm guilty of making similar questions myself. So this topic has actually helped me realise that two riders can apply the exact same principles, but at radically different speeds. Said in another way; the rest of us would have been charging the turns if we tried to enter them at Jorge's pace, but since his skill level is slightly above ours, he is just making up time

[Jasonzilla]

I think it's got to be your definition of the word "fast." If Lorenzo was comfortable going in at that speed, is it really "fast" for him? As much as a (I'm not allowed to use ANY of the words I would to describe him on this site) Eslick proved himself to be during the last AMA Supersport race last year, he's one of the best in the AMA at burning into turns. He's comfortable doing that, so his definition of fast is going to be different than anyone else's.

 

It could also be trust in your brakes and tires. Lorenzo is a slave to technology. He has the utmost faith in the technology they use on his bikes. He's notorious for it. He'll find the limits to the pieces and use them appropriately.

[Mike3000]

Ok, I worded it very badly but I think what i'm getting at is this: Would anyone on here think about trying to go into the corners faster to improve lap times? Just seems to be the opposite of what we have read/been taught.

[faffi]

Imagine that you could get off the corner with the best in the world. The bike and tyres are used to their limits. Yet you find you must go faster to win. What's left? Braking later and turning quicker. As I've mentioned, Spencer introduced this style of pushing the front so har it was literally slipping. His apex speed was the lowest but he was the fastest between entrance and exit. These days, tyre grip have improved tremendously and high cornering speed is required to reach the finishing line first. Squaring off the corner like Spencer did is not the fastest way around a track today. But the deeper you can brake and still make the corner at the high speed required, the faster you will be overall.

 

But in order to answer your question, you must first ask yourself if you have reached the physical limit on corner exits. Before that, it probably won't pay off to brake later and deeper. And braking harder also increase the chance of crashing.

[stuman]

Ok, I worded it very badly but I think what i'm getting at is this: Would anyone on here think about trying to go into the corners faster to improve lap times? Just seems to be the opposite of what we have read/been taught.

 

 

So your saying that you have been taught that a high entry speed is a bad thing?

 

Increasing entry speed to improve lap times isn't exactly a novel idea.

[Cobie Fair]

When high corner entry speed gets too high, and the other key skills get thrown in the trash, that's another matter. When a good solid turn point, or poor throttle control, or excessive lean angle caused by slow, lazy steering, when those are the result of a fast entry, then that can be a loosing proposition.

 

CF

[Ventodue]

Would anyone on here think about trying to go into the corners faster to improve lap times?

Well, Keith says, 'Yes' ...

 

Twist I, Chapter 8, page 63:

"If you want to go one mph faster than the last lap, you must be able to go into the turn that much faster. You can't hope to make up the speed later in the turn - you must set it up right in the beginning."

 

(I guess Jorge must have been doing some reading before Valencia ... )

 

Ciao

 

Craig

[dmj120]

Well, Keith says, 'Yes' ...

 

Twist I, Chapter 8, page 63:

"If you want to go one mph faster than the last lap, you must be able to go into the turn that much faster. You can't hope to make up the speed later in the turn - you must set it up right in the beginning."

 

Proper set-up being the key.... coupled with total commitment, of course. How many times have the announcers said "he's looking like he wants to pass" or "he's setting it up" or "looks like he's looking to set something up for later?"

[Cobie Fair]

Well, Keith says, 'Yes' ...

 

Twist I, Chapter 8, page 63:

"If you want to go one mph faster than the last lap, you must be able to go into the turn that much faster. You can't hope to make up the speed later in the turn - you must set it up right in the beginning."

 

Proper set-up being the key.... coupled with total commitment, of course. How many times have the announcers said "he's looking like he wants to pass" or "he's setting it up" or "looks like he's looking to set something up for later?"

 

 

OK, and what also has to change with the riding if the entry speed goes up?

 

This is your mini-Twist 2 quiz for the day .

 

CF

[dmj120]

Well, Keith says, 'Yes' ...

 

Twist I, Chapter 8, page 63:

"If you want to go one mph faster than the last lap, you must be able to go into the turn that much faster. You can't hope to make up the speed later in the turn - you must set it up right in the beginning."

 

Proper set-up being the key.... coupled with total commitment, of course. How many times have the announcers said "he's looking like he wants to pass" or "he's setting it up" or "looks like he's looking to set something up for later?"

 

 

OK, and what also has to change with the riding if the entry speed goes up?

 

This is your mini-Twist 2 quiz for the day .

 

CF

 

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, your flick-rate. But in this context, I'd have to say, many things; turn-ins, braking point, turn-in point, apex, the point at which you're on-throttle, your line. You're obviously thinking about running-in a bit deeper and tighter, which would alter 'all points at which a technique is perform' but not the manner in which they are performed... ie wide vision, smooth roll-on, good body position, etc.

 

Si o no?

[acebobby]

Well, Keith says, 'Yes' ...

 

Twist I, Chapter 8, page 63:

"If you want to go one mph faster than the last lap, you must be able to go into the turn that much faster. You can't hope to make up the speed later in the turn - you must set it up right in the beginning."

 

Proper set-up being the key.... coupled with total commitment, of course. How many times have the announcers said "he's looking like he wants to pass" or "he's setting it up" or "looks like he's looking to set something up for later?"

 

 

OK, and what also has to change with the riding if the entry speed goes up?

 

This is your mini-Twist 2 quiz for the day .

 

CF

 

I can only answer this Cobie with the speed you steer the bike, I think you can use all the same RPs, turn points etc but to make the same apex you would have to steer quicker!

 

Bobby

[Cobie Fair]

Correct! I'd ship you a sticker, but you are too far away!

 

CF

[dmj120]

So I got the flick-rate part, but for the follow-on, I was thinking about passing (ie stuffing) someone in the turn - instead of just being quicker.

 

 

....good thing it was just a mini quiz and not a final

[Crash106]

The LAST THING you want to do is play with using a shorter and shorter braking zone and moving that zone closer and closer to your turn point. On the other hand, if you are already on the racing line, have good exit speed, and have good mid-corner speed, well, the only thing left that can cut your time is to cut that braking zone. So, Lorenzo is at that point. Good for him. He has it all together, all the way through the turn from end back to the beginning. Nothing wrong with that.

 

He's not "charging" the turns when he knows exactly where to get on the brakes, how hard to brake, and where to get off the binders. He'll still enter the turn where he wants and at the speed he chooses. He'll have to be careful to not push to cut too much time by over-braking and falling down or scaring himself and slowing down, but those things don't seem to be happening so ... more power to him.

[JTNYC]

Cobie,

 

Since we're talking about quick turning... isn't it somewhat incompatible with trail braking, which all racers do?

 

Seems like if you're coming into a corner faster, you would need to brake harder and at the same time you also need to turn quicker, which would seem to increase the chances of tucking the front...?

 

Also, when coming to the end of a straight and the rearward rider comes out of the draft to take the inside line for passing, isn't he essentially turning earlier? i.e. earlier turn-in point?