Why Are We Weighting The Outside Peg?

[faffi]

I enjoyed the read. Not sure it really made me any wiser, but it was a good read nonetheless - you are good with words 👍

[53Driver]

25 minutes ago, faffi said:

I enjoyed the read. Not sure it really made me any wiser, but it was a good read nonetheless - you are good with words 👍

Thank you, sir!  (I think - lol)

The bottom line was that there seemed to be no disadvantage to weighting the outside peg and there was some math to imply that from a physics perspective, it does add stability.

Cheers,

Steve

[faffi]

That helped a lot for an old and slow man 👌

[53Driver]

6 hours ago, faffi said:

That helped a lot for an old and slow man 👌

That made my morning! 

Because I've read some your posts in other threads - I am doubting the "old & slow" stuff however...

[faffi]

A totally different take on weighing the pegs

 

[53Driver]

Well, his opening claim that "riders steer with the pegs" is blatantly false.  No one steers with just the pegs - the NO BS Bike proves that.  And I think the video author knows it too....

His techniques seem to be for slow speed operations - as in all his examples, he is steering, not counter-steering.  

Physics doesn't lie - peg weighting affects the rotational moment around the CG of the bike and this is can be used effectively in cornering requiring counter steering.

Cheers,

Steve

[Spinto]

This is surely stirring the pot!!   Not sure if those posting are racers, track day riders, have taken any training with CSS or just enthusiasts.

I've done 2 days of the school in  California....because i had to to qualify for Code Race. Then i did 2 days of Code Race right after.

My experience with weighting pegs....the outside in particular....was with exiting a tight corner and hard on the gas while leaned over.

My other experience with the pegs is in a tight chicane where i need to change direction quickly....so i move the bike under me....there isn't enough time to go "touring" on the track!

I'm curious how many have actually perfected just getting through the turns cleanly and with proper form?   Slow in...Fast out!

[53Driver]

I'm not saying "not" to use the pegs - in fact I advocate it - please see my post above, but peg weighting ALONE will not steer the bike.

[Cobie Fair]

If/when we get you guys to a school, and if you haven't ridden it, ride the NO B/S bike.  It really has to be ridden to get the full experience, no amount of talking seems to take the place of this training aide.

[Spinto]

11 minutes ago, Cobie Fair said:

If/when we get you guys to a school, and if you haven't ridden it, ride the NO B/S bike.  It really has to be ridden to get the full experience, no amount of talking seems to take the place of this training aide.

i can imagine. When was at Streets doing my Code race school with Dylan, it was down.

[Cobie Fair]

If we get you out, or even if you are near us and can come and ride it, let me know, we can squeeze that in, takes about 10 min.  I knew the theory, but my first test drive was in front of our shop, so I took a spin on it (full squid mode of course).  Nearly hit a parked car!!

Gotta ride it to believe it.  

Any data on the test drive above is protected by the squid clause.

[yakaru]

I'll expand on this some -- weighting the pegs by moving the body is vaguely effective. You see this in Dylan's video on youtube about the No BS bike. You're moving the bike's center of gravity very slightly and so it'll 'self counter steer' just slightly to compensate. Weighting the pegs without doing this is basically pointless. Think about using your calf to go 'tippy toe' while standing on the ground -- you're not pushing on the earth any more than before (equal and opposite reaction). In a similar way, look at astronauts in zero G if you can, it's an amazing example of these physics properties -- they can move their arms and legs internally, but they can't turn around without something to put the counter force on or a form of propulsion. 

[53Driver]

1 hour ago, yakaru said:

I'll expand on this some -- weighting the pegs by moving the body is vaguely effective. You see this in Dylan's video on youtube about the No BS bike. You're moving the bike's center of gravity very slightly and so it'll 'self counter steer' just slightly to compensate. Weighting the pegs without doing this is basically pointless. Think about using your calf to go 'tippy toe' while standing on the ground -- you're not pushing on the earth any more than before (equal and opposite reaction). In a similar way, look at astronauts in zero G if you can, it's an amazing example of these physics properties -- they can move their arms and legs internally, but they can't turn around without something to put the counter force on or a form of propulsion. 

When we "weight the pegs," it's not just 'moving the body', is it? 

Do we not actively shift the application point of some our body weight to a lower point on the motorcycle's frame?  If your bum is lightly riding on the seat and your weight is on the peg wouldn't the resulting moment about the peg would be proportional to how much weight we actually applied?  Or are there so many other forces involved at track speeds that this is completely negligible?  

I'm guessing for Trials and other slow speed activities, it's a lot more effective as those guys don't even rate a seat.

  

[53Driver]

18 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

If/when we get you guys to a school, and if you haven't ridden it, ride the NO B/S bike.  It really has to be ridden to get the full experience, no amount of talking seems to take the place of this training aide.

Hopefully it will be "up" and available at Barbers!

[Spinto]

27 minutes ago, 53Driver said:

Hopefully it will be "up" and available at Barbers!

hope so.....BArber is a great track. Offers alot for rider training. Elevations, blind corners-ish....great surface too

[fritzdacat]

Don't really need a NO-BS-Bike to proof the point. Had to buy some catlitter last week, car was not available, cat got impatient, so I took my fireblade to get some... anyway.. I put this big bag on the tank, it turned out that I could only just about reach the handlebars, so on my way home I could only countersteer by conciously leaning forward pushing one handlebar at a time, just by shifting my weight the bike kept going almost straight ahead, at least I would have never made it around any corners, even in slow traffic.

[Spinto]

Back to the topic Heading..."Why Are We Weighting The Outside Peg?

i use that technique when racing. I use it to accelerate sooner and/or when i change my line.

[Hotfoot]

I think we need to clarify whether we are talking about "weighting" the outside peg or talking about PRESSING on the peg.

Pressing down on the peg with your muscles to force you knee up into/against the tank can improve your lock on and that is a nice benefit.

Using the outside lower leg as a strength base for pivot steering is not weighting the peg, it is using the peg as the most stable pivot point. (Just standing on the peg doesn't work for pivot steering because that is not the same as locking your lower leg to the bike.)

If a rider senses an improvement in the bike's handling from peg pressure/weight, it is most likely because they are in reality locked on better OR have changed their body position to being lighter in the seat over bumps OR have changed the location of their Center Of Mass (I.e., hanging off more to the inside) but these are secondary effects and NOT produced by just putting more weight on a peg.

For chicanes and fast transitions, pivot steering is an excellent technique to be able to steer more decisively and strongly and get the bike over faster. Putting weight on the pegs during a transition will lighten your weight in the seat which allows you to slide your hips over more easily and quickly and that ALSO can quicken the transition. This can be used in conjunction with other body position techniques that we teach in Level 3.

[53Driver]

Thanks coach - I'm missing something important here.  

I'll do more research, but this may have to wait until 27 May.  

Happy 5/5!

[Jantzen]

If I'm not mistaken, Keith is saying that the peg should be weighted so that we have a stable platform to push against during the steering phase. He is not saying that we should be weighting the outside peg throughout the turn.

On page 51 of Twist II, Keith says "Allow your body to relax immediately after the steering action is completed. In fact, ideally, you would be loose right when the tires 'bite,' at the moment you are at full lean angle." emphasis his

Then, on page 52, he talks about laying on the tank under the 'Sit Still' section. In this story, he is relaxing so much that he is putting his weight on the tank throughout the mid-turn phase. This causes problems later on, but it is because of the degree to which he is laying on the tank combined with a lack of suspension adjustment.

In Chapter 19 of Twist II, the main headers are "Steering" and "Pivot Steering."

The riders weight must be in the same place every turn, every lap in order to facilitate consistent throttle behavior on exit and predictable suspension behavior mid-turn . A rider can easily shift 50 to 100 lbs on the outside peg during a short steering motion but the rider cannot be expected to keep that force on the outside leg at all times. It is simply too much effort and it will contribute to early exhaustion. In my view, the answer is to steer by pushing against the outside peg and to shift weight into the saddle as the cornering forces push the rider into the bike after the steering action is complete. This is consistent with racers occasionally having the outside foot slip off of the peg mid-turn. That foot wouldn't slip off without issue if it was heavily weighted at that moment. I haven't been watching races for very long, but I've never seen an outside foot slip off during the entry or steering phases of a turn.

[Cobie Fair]

Just checking...is there something you want clarified here?

[Jantzen]

In re-reading Hotfoot's last reply, I think that she fully answered the initial question while addressing the other comments so I think I'm squared away.

Thank you for following up.

[Keith Code]

Lots of good data from some of you and especially Hotfoot’s info. Here’s just a bit more on the subject of Pivot Steering. May be repetitive of some data already written but look it over an do the experiment at the end for fun.

My statement in Twist II about getting your weight closer to the center of mass or center of gravity by weighting the pegs rather than the seat and any implication that it alters the center of mass (COM) or center of gravity (COG) was, or helps in any way is, for lack of a better words, junk, incorrect, wrong.

Weight in the seat or on the pegs does not change the COG of you or the bike, at all. If you could move your body's mass lower than the seat or tank, it would but it has to be the mass changing position, not where the mass is connected to the bike.

Putting more weight on one or another peg is only changing its connection point. If you weight one peg you will go lighter in the seat and un-weight the other peg some. A very slight weight imbalance may occur but it has little, or no, effect on the bike’s direction.

When a bad passenger leans the “wrong” way, the rider must compensate by leaning the bike over more to stay on line. The COG of the passenger becomes offset from the bike’s COG and it must be leaned more to balance out the offset-from-center COG. The same goes for riders who hang their bum way off but leave their torsos crossed up, on the other side of the bikes center line. The benefit of the bum off the one side is neutralized by the torso mass being crossed to the other side or staying in the middle.  

In a straight line, moving your body’s mass over to the side, as in preparing the hung off riding position, creates a weight and COG imbalance. The bike veers toward the hung off side’s direction, slightly, not enough to turn into any corner on a race track at speed but does work on the road in some sweeping corners–at road speeds.

Pivot steering, as many have pointed out, has nothing to do with the weight on the outside peg. The peg is used as a push–off/pivot point. The weight on it has no measurable effect on the bikes balance. The thigh/knee are driven up and into the tank from the peg by doing a ‘calf raise’, pivoting off the peg.

 For pressing, or for pull-plus-press steering, there is no more stable or stronger body position than the Pivot Steering technique. This is easily demonstrated.

Have a friend hold a small bathroom scale flat up against the wall. Stand in front of it and line up your right arm with the scale. Plant both feet solidly about footpeg width, about 2 feet from the wall. Press on the scale with your right palm as hard as you can. Get the reading.

With feet in the same position, shift all your weight onto the right foot and then press as hard as you can on the scale with the right hand again. Get the reading.

Finally, pivot all your weight from your left foot and press on the scale. The last will be the highest reading by a substantial margin. That is one of the benefits of Pivot Steering, maximum strength which also tells you it is the most stable body position possible for counter steering.

The weighting of pegs in off road conditions was mentioned for traversing across slanted ground. In that scenario, the rider’s body mass also changes position in order to weight the peg and that shifts the combined COG to their benefit.