Barraman Posted April 30, 2009 Report Share Posted April 30, 2009 A couple of things, you can hang off the bike on the road to make your riding safer or feel better... like in the wet or suspect surfaces like round a bouts, keeping the bike more upright and safer. As for putting the ball of your foot on the peg, that's a pretty bad practice in my opinion... it takes your feet away from controls, especially the brake side, that you may need. If you need so much lean angle, buy rearsets and set your pegs to the right position. This also allows you to press your boot heal onto the peg hard and prevent your foot moving off the peg by accident. This theory was suggested to me by xxxxxxxxxxxxr, he teaches road skills and race craft. I've tried both methods and know which i think is more secure. This is part of a discussion about posture and foot position that I am having with another guy. I believe his advice to be fundamentally wrong except the ease of rear brake accessability while in traffic etc. But for general riding and balancing the bike on corner approach, getting weight inhside the bike etc being on the ball of the foot for the inside foot is much preferred IMO. Any comments either way will be well received. Barra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I commute 100% on a motorcycle, as well as do track, and since my second session of doing track, unless I run off, I don't use the back brake at all. I have a ZX6R, so I don't have the movement in the rear when I'm downshifting, thanks to the fabulous slipper clutch Kawasaki has been so generous to provide me with . I use it RARELY on my wife's EX650 on the street. I could easily get a way with, and get into the habit of, not using it at all. For most riders, you need to be on the ball of your foot when turning. When I'm on a straight I have my left foot under the clutch, but I always have the ball of my right foot on the peg out of habit. Brad may be putting too much weight on his inside leg, thus giving him an insecure feeling when he's cornering. Or he doesn't have any (or much) track experience. The guy you're having this discussion with may not be very advanced, or he's an old street bike rider. I have watched a couple guys coming hot into one of our corners at Firebird, and they bounce their bikes around under braking, but they say they don't feel it when I talk to them. They're just used to it. Times like that it may be good to give it some rear brake. The time and attention it takes to properly use the rear brake, I'd say, is counter productive to other things you could be focusing on. I don't think I know of anyone at the track who uses their rear brake, and just a couple who shift in corners. What have you come up with, or learned about this topic, Barraman? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 I fully disagree with the advise to put your heel on the foot peg. I have found that riding with the ball of your foot on the foot-peg not only provides for more cornering clearance (you don't drag your toes) but it also make you feel more balanced and in better control of the motorcycle. In any sport where you want to be agile and balanced you are on the balls of your feet. If you're flat footed in sports it is typically bad form. We call these things we ride SPORTbikes for a reason. In this activity we do, balance and control play an important role in how we ride and I feel that you are much more balanced and in control when you have the balls of your feel on the foot peg. That said, after suffering an ankle injury (to my left ankle) a few years ago I found that I like to put the outside peg in the arch of my foot once I have turned the bike in during right turns. I started doing this because of my injury because it took some stress off that ankle, but it became habit and I still do it now that I am recovered. In left turns I keep both pegs on the balls of me feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Just watched the latest (Japan) GP. How many of those guys move their foot back after using it for braking or shifting? Next point (Stuman already made it, but to add a little): how much lean angle is lost with the toes down, and the heel or arch on the peg? A lot. What happens with many novice riders when they hit their foot on the ground (way before it would have)? They often get startled and run wide. Usually not a serious problem at the track, but not so good on a street ride. Have a look (if you watch the GP), how often the rear wheel is skimming on the asphal? If you watch, you will regularly see air under the rear tire? Just how much work is the rear brake doing if the tire is in the air, hmm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 1, 2009 Report Share Posted May 1, 2009 Just watched the latest (Japan) GP. How many of those guys move their foot back after using it for braking or shifting? I practice and believe in using the balls for balance, however I've also observed many GP and SBK riders going flatfooted. What was your observation, Cobie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 What happens with many novice riders when they hit their foot on the ground (way before it would have)? They often get startled and run wide. Happened to me on my second trackday. Scared the dickens out of me. I don't remember whether or not it made me go off the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Just watched the latest (Japan) GP. How many of those guys move their foot back after using it for braking or shifting? Ummm... forgive me, but I don't really watch racing - what did you actually see them doing, moving it back or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 Just watched the latest (Japan) GP. How many of those guys move their foot back after using it for braking or shifting? I practice and believe in using the balls for balance, however I've also observed many GP and SBK riders going flatfooted. What was your observation, Cobie? Thats always been something I've wondered also, but I think it just boils down to them having the bike set up so they can lean 60-65% on them that there is plenty of clearance. They probably drag their knee planted against the bikes before they drag their feet. I'm sure they still have it in some position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
636rider Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 During turn, I feel more relax and secure when locking the bike with the ball of foot and knee at the outside leg only . The inside foot with no force on peg at all (or just as what I feel). For me, it seems easier to hangoff and quick turn with no weigh on handle bar this way by locking with one leg only. Anyone feels similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 During turn, I feel more relax and secure when locking the bike with the ball of foot and knee at the outside leg only . The inside foot with no force on peg at all (or just as what I feel). For me, it seems easier to hangoff and quick turn with no weigh on handle bar this way by locking with one leg only. Anyone feels similar? I shoot for balance. I was told by a local track "pro" that most of my weight was supposed to be on my inside foot. I was fighting the bike all day, and wasted a whole day. I've figured that keeping balance helps me adjust to just about anything that I come across quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
636rider Posted May 2, 2009 Report Share Posted May 2, 2009 During turn, I feel more relax and secure when locking the bike with the ball of foot and knee at the outside leg only . The inside foot with no force on peg at all (or just as what I feel). For me, it seems easier to hangoff and quick turn with no weigh on handle bar this way by locking with one leg only. Anyone feels similar? I shoot for balance. I was told by a local track "pro" that most of my weight was supposed to be on my inside foot. I was fighting the bike all day, and wasted a whole day. I've figured that keeping balance helps me adjust to just about anything that I come across quicker. When I do not put weight on the inner peg , just keep inner ball of foot on peg, but lock the outside leg with ball of foot and knee, I feel balance and can move my head and body to the inner side easily before countersteering. Hope that Cobie or Stuman can comment on how to take advantages of putting weight at inner peg if any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kawdude636 Posted May 3, 2009 Report Share Posted May 3, 2009 During turn, I feel more relax and secure when locking the bike with the ball of foot and knee at the outside leg only . The inside foot with no force on peg at all (or just as what I feel). For me, it seems easier to hangoff and quick turn with no weigh on handle bar this way by locking with one leg only. Anyone feels similar? I shoot for balance. I was told by a local track "pro" that most of my weight was supposed to be on my inside foot. I was fighting the bike all day, and wasted a whole day. I've figured that keeping balance helps me adjust to just about anything that I come across quicker. When I do not put weight on the inner peg , just keep inner ball of foot on peg, but lock the outside leg with ball of foot and knee, I feel balance and can move my head and body to the inner side easily before countersteering. Hope that Cobie or Stuman can comment on how to take advantages of putting weight at inner peg if any. me too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barraman Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I have seen that most GP riders have the heel hooked into the peg on the outside and are on the ball on the inside,,, I also saw several riders in the last race not only wave the left leg around in or just before entry but the right leg as well.. Not on topic but..its my thread...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 It doesn't matter for ground clearance where the outside foot is, some find it more comfortable. The inside foot is gotten out of the way, pretty sure everyone does that. As for the weight on the inside peg, almost all of Level 3 is devoted to what the rider is doing on the bike. I'm not trying to sell Level 3 here, just that it's not a simple/quick answer on this subject of the bike/rider relationship. There are a number of pieces to it. One quick comment I'll make though: not an issue if you the rider has some weight on the inside peg. C Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
636rider Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 It doesn't matter for ground clearance where the outside foot is, some find it more comfortable. The inside foot is gotten out of the way, pretty sure everyone does that. As for the weight on the inside peg, almost all of Level 3 is devoted to what the rider is doing on the bike. I'm not trying to sell Level 3 here, just that it's not a simple/quick answer on this subject of the bike/rider relationship. There are a number of pieces to it. One quick comment I'll make though: not an issue if you the rider has some weight on the inside peg. C Cobie, thanks a lot for your comment. Now I can bother you with one less question when returning for level 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Cobie, thanks a lot for your comment. Now I can bother you with one less question when returning for level 4. As long as you have something! CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevuetlr Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 hi guys... i dont normally post and pretty much just lurk around here. body position and feet position are certainly critical to high performance riding with 2 goals to meet - TRACTION and CLEARANCE. i thought i would put in my two cents about a few things. outside foot position: like how mr cobe stated, it doesnt matter where your outside foot is... some ride on their toes... majority of the "fast" guys on their heel. is there a reason for this? sure. but both could work fine. the other is just more effective. and to prove my point, ill have you do a quick test on your next trackday or maybe on your bike up on a rear stand. first, hangoff and put your outside toes on the peg. locked in? how long do you think you can maintain this position for? say 30 hot laps? maybe? probably but you will be sore because youre calves will be doing all the work. now, hangoff with your outside heel on the peg. this position will put your inside thigh on the tank. with this position, you have a bigger muscle group to hold you up. aha! did something click? besides going fast, racing is also about efficiency and saving energy. it makes sense but it still boils down to rider preference. which peg to weigh? theres another question to be answered here... which peg do i put my weight on? there are a few schools of thought here. fact is, you want that weight down low to free up your arms and your hands for steering. some would say inside foot, some would say outside. all i can say is try them both. really put weight on it... and see what happens. if your pace isnt really that fast, you will probably wouldnt feel a diference but once you up the pace youll definitely get to experience it... fact: feet is for anchoring, hands are for steering. you can certainly effect steering with your feet but not as significant as steering. another fact: if you keep pressure on the inside peg after the apex, it will easily land you on your ass. its just common physics. get your self on a dirt bike and experiment, it will answer a lot of questions that seemed to be misconceived... a lot. Kieth Code talked about weeding out information on totw 2 and also briefly covered anchoring ones self to a bike i think. dont overanalyze and get to the track. also, ive never seen wsbk, motogp, or any racer for that matter that didnt put their inside food up on their toes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 6, 2009 Report Share Posted May 6, 2009 hi guys... i dont normally post and pretty much just lurk around here. body position and feet position are certainly critical to high performance riding with 2 goals to meet - TRACTION and CLEARANCE. i thought i would put in my two cents about a few things. outside foot position: like how mr cobe stated, it doesnt matter where your outside foot is... some ride on their toes... majority of the "fast" guys on their heel. is there a reason for this? sure. but both could work fine. the other is just more effective. and to prove my point, ill have you do a quick test on your next trackday or maybe on your bike up on a rear stand. first, hangoff and put your outside toes on the peg. locked in? how long do you think you can maintain this position for? say 30 hot laps? maybe? probably but you will be sore because youre calves will be doing all the work. now, hangoff with your outside heel on the peg. this position will put your inside thigh on the tank. with this position, you have a bigger muscle group to hold you up. aha! did something click? besides going fast, racing is also about efficiency and saving energy. it makes sense but it still boils down to rider preference. which peg to weigh? theres another question to be answered here... which peg do i put my weight on? there are a few schools of thought here. fact is, you want that weight down low to free up your arms and your hands for steering. some would say inside foot, some would say outside. all i can say is try them both. really put weight on it... and see what happens. if your pace isnt really that fast, you will probably wouldnt feel a diference but once you up the pace youll definitely get to experience it... fact: feet is for anchoring, hands are for steering. you can certainly effect steering with your feet but not as significant as steering. another fact: if you keep pressure on the inside peg after the apex, it will easily land you on your ass. its just common physics. get your self on a dirt bike and experiment, it will answer a lot of questions that seemed to be misconceived... a lot. Kieth Code talked about weeding out information on totw 2 and also briefly covered anchoring ones self to a bike i think. dont overanalyze and get to the track. also, ive never seen wsbk, motogp, or any racer for that matter that didnt put their inside food up on their toes. Belle, I think you are my new best friend Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leftlaner Posted May 18, 2009 Report Share Posted May 18, 2009 Some good advice from Belle here..! +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msneedtx Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Great advice here. There are so many inputs new track riders (hopefully future amateur racers) get it is often hard to sort out. Foot peg position and weight were keywords I was dialing in on here when I noticed the "steering" comment. I guess I had not thought of steering with my hands as I just bought a CMRA race bike and the damper was set so tight steering doesn't even seem to be something I do anymore - it forced me to use lean angle (pushing down on handlebar "and" foot peg) and throttle to control my line. If I want to go wide.. increase the throttle.. this improved my lap times considerably. I was no longer really "steering" to my lines if that makes sense. I have only done 8 track days now since I started in January of this year so my comments are not exactly based on experience. Does my comment make sense about steering? I used to run a ZX7R with stock setups and typically only have my forefinger and thumb actually holding on to the handlebar and just rest the remaining fingers on top of the clutch and brake. With the new GSXR750 that was race prepped (too many goodies to mention) I do admit that I had to allocate another finger to hold on during acceleration ;-) ; however, my touch on the handlebar can only be described as feather light and it forces me to truly balance my weight distribution more forward. My main question (I don't know where to post however it seems posture/foot position related) - is more related to the leg / ankle fatigue I am experiencing (and still struggling 4 days later). The new bike has a GP-shift. The adjustable rearsets were never adjusted for me but it felt ok since everything was weird getting used to the GP shift. No this is not a gp shift thread but after a member day at MSR Cresson (consisting of 7 full 30 minute sessions on the 1.7M track) on Saturday the 23rd I still don't have full use of my left ankle (can't move it upward with "any" force and I am still having to reach down to put my kickstand down with my hands (yes I had to put it back on since I unsaddle alone)). This track is practically all lefts. Is this normal? I am used to member days where I have almost unlimited use of the track and yes it kicks my legs arse but this was extreme. I am in fairly good shape and do one leg squats, etc., I guess I need to do more foot lifts ;-) I am going to adjust the shift lever lower so I am not straining as much on upward down-shifts but just thought I would gauge if this ankle/foot fatigue seemed normal. Regards, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevuetlr Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 i dont see how you can get completely exhausted just by shifting and putting your left foot on the ball when turning left. looking at the track map. it seems like you will have ample time to rest your foot on the straightaways - and you have 4 of them. You should be resting your feet on the ball when youre not cornering or shifting. as far as steering.. what you are doing isnt efficient at all. loosen the damper a little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 Sounds like you were putting a lot of pressure on your inside foot while turning left. May be something to work on. Were you fighting the bike? putting that pressure on the inside foot can also make it harder to steer. I've had to get over something like this before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 ...steering doesn't even seem to be something I do anymore - it forced me to use lean angle (pushing down on handlebar "and" foot peg) ... ...and yet no one has picked up on this clue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellevuetlr Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 is it safe to assume that people who post in these forums have a general idea of what twist of the wrist is about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted May 28, 2009 Report Share Posted May 28, 2009 is it safe to assume that people who post in these forums have a general idea of what twist of the wrist is about? Many do, but usually best to reference whatever point you are trying to make. CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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