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Ventodue

Weighting A Footpeg - Inside Or Outside?

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Happy New Year everyone and here's something I've come across recently that I don't really get.

 

In chapter 19 of TWT II, Keith is talking about pivot steering. He emphasises the importance of weighting the outside peg, writing, for example on page 85:

"Using the outside peg as your pivot point ... reduces your weight on the seat and puts the majority of your weight on that lower, outside peg".

 

Yet in Sport Riding Techniques, Nick Ienatsch in chapter 4, entitled "Steer that Thing", clearly emphasises weighting the inside peg. He says, for example, on page 42:

" ... the bike begins turning when you move your body weight towards the inside of the corner, onto the inside foot peg".

 

So are these contradictory approaches, or am I missing something here?

 

Any elucidation will be much appreciated!

 

Craig

 

P.s. One thing I certainly don't understand is how, in Keith's sentence, the peg that is to be weighted can be both "lower" and "outside" ... ?

 

P.p.s. You can probably tell from this posting that the weather here hasn't really too great for riding recently, and I've been filling my idle hours with too much reading and not enuf doing - altho' I did get out yesterday, but not on a sports bike ... smile.gif

 

DSCF4934.jpg

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Hi Ventodue,

 

Hi and welcome to the forum. Let me answer your questions. :)

 

In chapter 19 of TWT II, Keith is talking about pivot steering. He emphasises the importance of weighting the outside peg, writing, for example on page 85:

"Using the outside peg as your pivot point ... reduces your weight on the seat and puts the majority of your weight on that lower, outside peg".

 

 

Keith is not saying that pivot steering is HOW you steer a bike. We are talking about weighting the outside peg creating a pivot point. This pivot point is used to gain more leverage and force which then can be applied to the opposite handle bar --enhancing our counter-steering action.

 

 

Keith being very thorough says the lower peg, because some sport bikes have rear passenger pegs which would be considered upper. So that would eliminate any confusion on which peg to pivot from.

 

 

Yet in Sport Riding Techniques, Nick Ienatsch in chapter 4, entitled "Steer that Thing", clearly emphasises weighting the inside peg. He says, for example, on page 42:

" ... the bike begins turning when you move your body weight towards the inside of the corner, onto the inside foot peg".

 

So are these contradictory approaches, or am I missing something here?

 

 

 

Your not missing anything, the data about weighting the peg is false data.

 

Weight can have an affect on the bike and can get it to change direction. But not significant enough to actually get the job done. Try missing a car that pulls out in front of you by putting weight on the inside peg!! Your dead meat. Or flicking it from one knee to another knee --just not possible.

 

Case in point: How would a little guy like Pedrosa even have enough weight to "flick" his bike? Firstly, you would need a pivot point to actually weight the peg. If you watch any MotoGP race you'll see the riders hanging their knee out before the turn - so in that case, there is no pivot point. Do you see the riders stomping or forcing weight into the peg?

 

On a side note, even when you move weight to get the bike to steer, the handlebars automatically counter-steer, and they'll do it on their own. Twist II DVD demonstrates this. We also have a drill at the school called the "No Body Steering" drill. Come and give that a try and you'll have the "doing" your looking for. :)

 

Cheers,

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Craig,

 

Let us know (when you can :)) if you give this a try and what you find happening.

 

CF

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<snip> We are talking about weighting the outside peg creating a pivot point. This pivot point is used to gain more leverage and force which then can be applied to the opposite handle bar --enhancing our counter-steering action.

Thanks, Pete. Good. This is as I understood it when I first read it, before geting my head messed up by .... blink.gif . So good to have a confirmation.

(P.s. Yes, I appreciate pivot steering is an extra to counter-steering, not 'The Real Thing'.)

 

Keith being very thorough says the lower peg, because some sport bikes have rear passenger pegs which would be considered upper. So that would eliminate any confusion on which peg to pivot from.

Ah! Ta! rolleyes.gif.

(Curiously, I do tend to ride this over-stretched lump off the back pegs, so I should have be able to work that one myself.) July03-3.jpg

P.s Don't laugh - these things pretended to be sports bikes in their day. It's not what I use as a track bike today, I should hasten to add.

 

Your not missing anything, the data about weighting the peg is false data.

 

Ah! (again ...). OK, armed with that info, I shall follow Cobie's advice and go see what happens in real life.

 

Thanks again.

 

Craig

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Let us know (when you can smile.gif) if you give this a try and what you find happening.

Will do, Cobie. Weather's gone horrible again here, so it may be a few days (yeh, yeh, I have no shame in being a Fair Weather Biker these days).

 

To be honest, I'm really not sure what I do at the moment - so must pay more attention to the good advice in Chapter 2 of TWTI rolleyes.gif . All I would say at the moment is that, when riding my little Scrambler for example, I can't deny NI's argument that weighting a peg does cause the bike to steer in the direction of the weighting.

 

But then again Pete's message reminds me that I do weight the outside peg when turning the big Ducrappi - i.e use it as a pivot point, to use Keith's term. And I think I do the same on my track bike. But I've just come over all confused now ... blink.gifohmy.gif

 

Cheers

 

Craig

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I read once that top rank riders could shift their weight between the inside and outside peg as many as 20 times per corner. Apparently, they did this to initiate/enhance/reduce/stop rear wheel slides. This was written back in the GP500 two-stroke era, which may have had something to do with it? Or do they still constantly shift their weight around in order to maximize handling and grip? Stoner, for instance, would wear out a pair of shoes (soles) every race weekend, suggesting a massive amount of work going through the legs and feet.

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I read once that top rank riders could shift their weight between the inside and outside peg as many as 20 times per corner. Apparently, they did this to initiate/enhance/reduce/stop rear wheel slides. This was written back in the GP500 two-stroke era, which may have had something to do with it? Or do they still constantly shift their weight around in order to maximize handling and grip? Stoner, for instance, would wear out a pair of shoes (soles) every race weekend, suggesting a massive amount of work going through the legs and feet.

 

Erik,

 

Not sure about those old GP500 two-strokes and controlling the tire slide. Frankly, not something I want to try. :D

 

Weight can have an affect on the bikes suspension. Keith talks about this in Chapters 11 and 13, in Twist II. We also cover this in a L-3 drill. Have you done any of the levels yet?

 

Cheers,

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Ah! (again ...). OK, armed with that info, I shall follow Cobie's advice and go see what happens in real life.

 

 

Cheers!

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Craig,

 

My second bike (and 2nd race bike) was a ducati similar to that one, 1980 Supersport, black and gold. Neat bike, but long as a freight train!

 

CF

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My second bike (and 2nd race bike) was a ducati similar to that one, 1980 Supersport, black and gold. Neat bike, but long as a freight train!

 

Excellent! But yeh, long ... Just how Mike Hailwood beat them all around the Island on something similar will forever remain an unfathomable mystery for me huh.gif. I think John Williams was kinda thinking the same ...biggrin.gif

 

HailwoodonthepodiumIoMreduced.jpg

 

 

And then he went and beat them all again around Mallory Park, a short track course, if ever there was one.

 

mike_r.jpg

 

But I'm dangerously 'Off Topic' now, so will shut up ... Raining here today and work to do as well, so no chance yet to go and experiment.

 

Amicalement

 

Craig

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Back when I was learning the basics, one of the bike mags was banging on about putting weight through the pegs to steer, so I experimeted for a while with weighting the inside peg. As said above, that doesn't steer the bike, but weighting the inside peg does give that feeling of better stability when leaned over, in a similar way to weighting the outside peg, instead of just sitting your ass on the seat and waggling the bars. However I learned soon enough that the outside peg was the way to go, as Keith says, and this only becomes more relevant when you ground out the peg or want to start hanging off. Sounds like Nick Ienatsch is a bit behind the times.

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Have any of you guys ridden the NO B/S bike? That is a real treat, highly recommended :).

 

CF

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Have any of you guys ridden the NO B/S bike? That is a real treat, highly recommended smile.gif.

 

CF

 

 

We dont get those special treats like BS bikes etc in Australia wonder if it may happen? Does the UK school have anything similar ?, or are these extras just a USA thing?

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Have any of you guys ridden the NO B/S bike? That is a real treat, highly recommended smile.gif.

No, not me, Cobie. Like ozfirebalde, I don't know if the UK school has one. Bullet, Andy?

 

Craig

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Have any of you guys ridden the NO B/S bike? That is a real treat, highly recommended smile.gif.

No, not me, Cobie. Like ozfirebalde, I don't know if the UK school has one. Bullet, Andy?

Didn't see one when I was doing Level 3 & 4 at Silverstone in July 2009 :(

 

 

Kai

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Pretty sure we are the only ones that have that bike. The UK and Oz branches have some paddock restrcitions that we don't have.

 

If you guys ever get over here, make sure you ride that thing, it really is an eye opener.

 

CF

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Pretty sure we are the only ones that have that bike. The UK and Oz branches have some paddock restrcitions that we don't have.

 

If you guys ever get over here, make sure you ride that thing, it really is an eye opener.

Nice offer, Cobie - thanks. It's just seems rather a long way to go to ride a bike that won't steer ...ohmy.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif

 

Anyways, back to the question. (Seeing as it's still raining here sad.gif ), can I just confirm what I understand Pete and Johnny to be saying, i.e. that weighting the inside peg (as advocated by NI) doesn't, in reality, deliver much/any steering benefit. But putting weight on the outside peg, so that it acts as pivot point (like wot Keith says), helps make the bike easier to steer?

 

Is that it, or am I still swiming round in circles?

 

Thanks again.

 

Craig

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Anyways, back to the question. (Seeing as it's still raining here sad.gif ), can I just confirm what I understand Pete and Johnny to be saying, i.e. that weighting the inside peg (as advocated by NI) doesn't, in reality, deliver much/any steering benefit. But putting weight on the outside peg, so that it acts as pivot point (like wot Keith says), helps make the bike easier to steer?

 

Is that it, or am I still swiming round in circles?

 

Thanks again.

 

Craig

 

the way I understand it:

1) weighting the inside peg does not deliver any steering benefit

2) "weighting" the outside peg only delivers benefit if you use it as a pivot point in order to more easily engage the counter-steering action on your handlebar.

 

Remember that the steering happens in the handlebar, always.

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Well, I've already mentioned the NO B/S bike, designed for this very purpose.

 

Let's say you don't have an opportunity to ride it.

 

Find an open straight stretch of road and get your bike up to 50 mph. Let go of the bars and start pushing on one peg. With both hands off the bar, the bike will slow down, so won't be able to do this very long.

 

This can actually be done on a bicycle at 15, can't get it steered effectively at all, and then when you do get it to lean over, watch the handle bars, they countersteer!

 

CF

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I was going to post a similar issue regarding weighting / pressure on the pegs – but will just add to this one.

 

I've now been riding my SV650 track bike much more smoother and my laps times seconds better. I'm no where near setting lap records but I'm feeling better on the bike and getting close to being able to do some club level bracket racing.

 

Last track day I noticed that once I'm in the corner and at my desired lean angle and slider on the ground – on a few occasions I noticed that alot of weight (or maybe pressure?) was actually on the inside peg.

 

Is this normal or incorrect? On another lap I attempted to keep some weight on the outside and relax the inside leg / foot (knee sliding) but struggled to release the pressure and weight on the inside peg.

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Well done on even noticing that MrSlow! Most only wonder why their leg hurts so much after spirited cornering sessions. You noticed it's not very comfortable having so much weight on the inside peg hey?

 

The ability to get your footpeg weight setup such that it's comfortable depends on a few things, but by and large the most important reason is the ability for you to "lock on" to your motorcycle effectively.

As you've not been to the school yet I can't relate you to drills that are relevant (necessary) to get it perfect, but we'll take a stepped approach to see if you can get a little closer to achieving your aim of being comfortable.

 

So with that in mind, bear with me, we'll be talking about holding onto the bike, we'll talk about the bars, the legs, the tank even your butt, but it's all relevant to our end goal OK!

 

In the past on this forum we've spoke of the importance of being relaxed on the bars, do you find when your weight is heavy on the inside peg you might also be holding a little tight on the bars? If we can't hold onto the bike using the bars, what can we hold on with?

No doubt you've watch John Wayne at work on his horse in a good western :D He's plodding along on his horse, holding a thin leather strap in his hands... he isn't holding onto the horse using that leather strap, so what's he holding on with? His legs!

 

Can we do the same on a bike? Hell yes! But we might be making life difficult for ourselves if we try to hold on incorrectly with our legs - this is where being at a school REALLY helps, we can position you such that you can then feel the difference in being locked on, versus not.... and the difference in seating positions might be less than an inch!

 

Consider this, if we want to hold onto the bike using our legs in the turns, we really want the strongest muscle in our legs to be used - otherwise it'll be hard work... which muscle then... the quad's (look them up) they're the puppies to use, idea:

 

Try something with your bike on stands in the garage, get yourself jammed up against the tank and hang your butt far far off the seat, do you feel stable? imagine hitting bumps? Notice you can't let go of the bars without considerable abs, diaphragm and back muscle effort! Not good... also check out how far you can comfortably get your inside knee out, not much! Note how the further off the seat you get, the more you twist away from the turn (in towards the bike).... so where's that leave the heavier half of you? Over the tank - which negates all the weight you've attempted to put low and to the inside of the turn.

Added up you can be putting bar inputs in and tensing so many muscles that should be relaxed, using more lean than necessary and potentially going slower due to lean and not feeling stable on the bike! Not good.

 

Now instead of hanging a full butt cheek off just move somewhere between one to three inches to the side when setting up for the corner... basically very little, see if this lets your outside knee (from the knee to halfway towards the groin) come in contact with the tank more as this is where you will be holding on best (the stronger Quad muscles). If all your contact is close to the groin (abductors) then you wont be able to maintain that pressure for long, best to use the quads which are far more powerful.

Picture that your outside knee can be rivetted into the tank...to get to that position most people need to move a little back in the seat, not so close to the tank, this is where it's important to refine this with a coach in person, as everyone is an individual ("no I'm not!"), now in that position further back from the tank, is it easier to get the upper body lower? can you easily get your knee way further out than before? Does this position give you more room for your arms and potentially for some... the beer gut? Do you feel more stable should you hit bumps? How about how much lighter you can relax on the bars? easier there? Can you last longer at trackdays doing this? with a more stable bike and less lean or more speed with your knee down earlier (big goal for some)? Most importantly or you, how is your footpeg weight? A bit better?

 

Anyway, this is a really difficult thing to get right via text... best to get this right with a CSS coach on the day, but give yourself a treat and try it out in the garage, you might well be surprised. Most things that help make us go faster are simple changes, which just doesn't seem right considering if they're simple changes then we must be stupid for not knowing to do that before???? i.e. we want things to be harder than they really are.. crazy huh.

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Jason,

 

Great explanation! I have to admit that this is something I'm struggling to work out myself. I completed Level 2 last August and the last thing we did was the lean bike. Coach Lonnie said I was doing it right but with only about 5 minutes I didn't really get to define what "doing it right" meant, it felt good but I cant seem to replicate that feeling on my bike. When I'm on my bike now I feel that I'm putting too much weight on my inside peg, I'm literally carrying most of my body weight on it and it sounds like I'm doing too much work for too little result!

 

Would I be correct in saying that "weighting the outside peg" properly means using the outside peg to plant your leg so you can anchor your knee into the tank NOT carrying the majority of my body weight like I'm incorrectly doing now with the inside peg?

 

I realize that doing this with a coach is critical and I am planning on doing levels 3 & 4 in May but I think I may have had an "ah ha!" moment there and I need to know if I'm finally getting it.

 

Many thanks for your guidance.

 

Best,

 

Carey

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Carey,

 

You will get the full monty in Level 3 for sure, but one point we can touch on here: if there is some weight on the inside leg its not critical. But if not anchored with that outside leg, where will there end up being tension?

 

One thing that can help this is the tank pads, Tech Spec or Stomp Grip.

 

CF

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Carey,

 

You will get the full monty in Level 3 for sure, but one point we can touch on here: if there is some weight on the inside leg its not critical. But if not anchored with that outside leg, where will there end up being tension?

 

One thing that can help this is the tank pads, Tech Spec or Stomp Grip.

 

CF

 

Cobie (or should I just start calling you Jester?:D),

 

I guess I didn't have such an "ah ha" moment after all. I do have tank pads (Tec Spec's) and they do help tremendously (at least when I'm wearing leathers) however what I'm experiencing is this, when I shift my weight to the inside I load up the inside peg, even if I feel like I have my outside foot/knee planted. I do notice the stress I place on my inside leg and I have to tighten my core to prevent transferring stress to the bars. But when I try to weight the outside peg I just end up crossed up. Once I weight the outside peg and shift to the inside should I focus on moving my upper body down and to the inside while my lower body stays planted on the outside?

 

I realize I will get this sorted out in Level 3 and I signed up for the two day camp in May at VIR today (please tell Whitney I said thanks again) but it is driving me crazy. I'm sure it is much simpler than I am making it but I missing something somewhere.

 

Remember, a teacher is only as good as his dullest student so I could make you a superstar if you can just sort me out!:blink:

 

Thanks,

Carey

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