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I have talked to several people about this topic and some understand and some just tell me "Get your body like this and the bike will automatically turn for you, just as long as you get your head where you can kiss the mirror". I have been reading the TOTW2 book and watching the DVD and noticed how much quicker it is to steer the bike with a little bar pressure(I used to try pressing straight down..:-), but my question is when cornering in the "hang-off" position are you still in your seat or are you standing on the inside bar? I have seen some videos on Youtube (Andy Ibbott) and noticed that he was slightly out the seat to slide back and forth across the seat. I just wanted to know if this same rule applies to taking a corner.

 

Thanks!

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I have talked to several people about this topic and some understand and some just tell me "Get your body like this and the bike will automatically turn for you, just as long as you get your head where you can kiss the mirror".

ITux, I'd stay away from those people. There isn't anything "automatic" about steering a bike, especially at speed that I am aware of but then people say that I am a lot dumber than I look.

 

when cornering in the "hang-off" position are you still in your seat or are you standing on the inside bar?

This is a topic that is covered in depth in Level III but the short answer is hanging off is a literal term. It involves locking yourself onto the bike with your outside knee and not loading the inside foot peg. You still have some contact with the seat but you should not be centered on it.

 

I have seen some videos on Youtube (Andy Ibbott) and noticed that he was slightly out the seat to slide back and forth across the seat. I just wanted to know if this same rule applies to taking a corner.

I think what was being demonstrated is (again from Level III), either the Hip Flick or the Knee to Knee which is how you transition from a left to a right in quick succession. These are drills are complimentary to each other but are different drills non the less.

 

Rainman

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Hi Itux,

 

As RM said, there is a bit of technique to the body, and how it relates to both steering (maximizing what you do on the bike) as well as hanging off, how that effects the bike and you.

 

I think the full answer could be a few pieces for you: first, it would be ideal to get you on the NO B/S bike, so you could see very clearly what the bars do (I know you have a good idea on this, but that bike is a real eye opener).

 

Next, a question (you might have guessed that was coming!):

 

Will it be better to be braced when you put the effort into the bars, or floating above the seat?

 

CF

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Hi Itux,

 

As RM said, there is a bit of technique to the body, and how it relates to both steering (maximizing what you do on the bike) as well as hanging off, how that effects the bike and you.

 

I think the full answer could be a few pieces for you: first, it would be ideal to get you on the NO B/S bike, so you could see very clearly what the bars do (I know you have a good idea on this, but that bike is a real eye opener).

 

Next, a question (you might have guessed that was coming!):

 

Will it be better to be braced when you put the effort into the bars, or floating above the seat?

 

CF

 

 

Cobie, after applying initial steering inputs to the handle bar to quick turn the bike, can we still keep countersteering if we feel we running wide? or it'd be safer to add more lean angle ?

 

 

 

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The way you add more lean angle is by counter steering.

 

Have you tried using your vision and counter steering to "connect the dots" from your turn in point, to the apex, to the exit?

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but my question is when cornering in the "hang-off" position are you still in your seat or are you standing on the inside bar?

 

Thanks!

 

When you have your weight on the inside bar I see 2 dangers:

 

- When the bike slides, you'll push it away (If you'd be standing on the outside bar, and locked with your knees on the tank - the bike would slide with you and not away from you)

- dragging a peg with your whole weight on it... bad...

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The way you add more lean angle is by counter steering.

 

Have you tried using your vision and counter steering to "connect the dots" from your turn in point, to the apex, to the exit?

 

Crash106,

 

I got it.

Man, the whole week I was so much focused on late turn in point and quick turn techniques, that I totally forgot about APEX!! .

Today I did try to connect the dots from turn in point to the apex. Of course it worked for me ! :) THANK YOU!

 

Another thing I found scary today is looking far into the exit point of the turn. After hittin apex and exiting the turn, I find myself looking 10 feet in front of me and unconsciously to the outside of the turn (not staring but that's where my mind 'look'). I feel as if I will start running wide if I don't look to the outside of the turn. What should I do?

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Your friends who don't countersteer actually do. They just don't know it. No matter the BP, steering the bike will be minimal and ineffective for any type of riding if you don't give input into the bars. Learn it, practice, and give some examples to your friends. You won't be wrong.

 

I've always hated the "get your head where you can kiss the mirror" saying. If you've tried it and had pics taken, I'll guarantee you're not over as far as you think. Best way to get comfortable getting to the proper position is to get your chest on the tank and find a place to put a shoulder or your belly consistently so you are "over the tank." It will help more than trying to get your face where the mirror is, or however you want to say it.

What I do to correct the issue with looking 10 feet in front of me was to just get my head up and down the track. Never get to the point you're looking, if that makes sense. As soon as you're going to hit the apex comfortably, you should have your head up and further down the track looking at something else. I go from TP to apex to a point that is going to get me out of the corner to down the track. If where you're looking gets you wide, change where you're looking.

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The way you add more lean angle is by counter steering.

 

Have you tried using your vision and counter steering to "connect the dots" from your turn in point, to the apex, to the exit?

 

Crash106,

 

I got it.

Man, the whole week I was so much focused on late turn in point and quick turn techniques, that I totally forgot about APEX!! .

Today I did try to connect the dots from turn in point to the apex. Of course it worked for me ! smile.gif THANK YOU!

 

Another thing I found scary today is looking far into the exit point of the turn. After hittin apex and exiting the turn, I find myself looking 10 feet in front of me and unconsciously to the outside of the turn (not staring but that's where my mind 'look'). I feel as if I will start running wide if I don't look to the outside of the turn. What should I do?

 

pick up drill, cant remember the chapter but its in TOTW2 but its chapter 19 on the TOTW DVD

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The way you add more lean angle is by counter steering.

 

Have you tried using your vision and counter steering to "connect the dots" from your turn in point, to the apex, to the exit?

 

Crash106,

 

I got it.

Man, the whole week I was so much focused on late turn in point and quick turn techniques, that I totally forgot about APEX!! .

Today I did try to connect the dots from turn in point to the apex. Of course it worked for me ! smile.gif THANK YOU!

 

Another thing I found scary today is looking far into the exit point of the turn. After hittin apex and exiting the turn, I find myself looking 10 feet in front of me and unconsciously to the outside of the turn (not staring but that's where my mind 'look'). I feel as if I will start running wide if I don't look to the outside of the turn. What should I do?

 

pick up drill, cant remember the chapter but its in TOTW2 but its chapter 19 on the TOTW DVD

 

 

Thanks Fellas for the updates...this will definitely help when I need to ask more questions when I attend Level I in August at NJMP(by the way that track is awsome..I was there this past weekend for the July 3rd-4th celebrations with TPM). I can't wait to get back on that track with the SuperBike school:lol:

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at the risk of being branded a heretic

 

 

 

Hereticbiggrin.gif

That clip just doesnt show the close up of the front end and what the steering is actually doing..i cant explain it as well as the TOTW DVD but in it it shows exactly what happens. So really apart from trying to prove someone wrong he is actually confirming the countersteering theory correct and that he has some big brass ones!!!!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Yeah, I LOVE that video! One thing I noticed in the heretical YouTube.com video was that the guy leaning his way down the mountain road was riding on a road with a fair amount of banking. I believe the banking "tricks" the bike into turning with much less movement of the front wheel. I don't have the technical vocabulary to explain this, but I believe the bike "thinks" it's going straight, even though it is banking into a curve. Does that make sense?

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The Hereticialness of the video aside :) there's a reason why that motorcycle is still being steered into the corners with the weight shift alone, it's called countersteering.

 

As OzFireblade said, this is explained nicely in TOTW2 DVD, however if you don't have access to that DVD then read on.

So where is the steering input is coming from if the rider isn't touching the bars? Have you got a pushbike? (simply since this demonstration on a pushbike can be done quite easily and safely in a parking lot). You can discover this countersteering for yourself just as Keith did in the video - Tape an arrow to the top of the steering head on your bicycle, have it pointing the same way as the front wheel (i.e. with the front wheel pointing straight ahead your arrow will be pointing straight ahead also).

Go for a ride, reach a speed that the bike is quite stable, this will require something above a decent running pace, now for the purpose of making this countersteering input obvious lean to one side or the other quite quickly to get your weight across.

 

Note the VERY initial movement of your arrow... is it pointing into the turn, or away from the turn?

 

On the demonstration Keith uses a motorcycle, you see from the camera angle pointing straight down onto the top triple clamp that the arrow initially moves away from the turn, exactly the same direction as the steering would have moved if the rider had countersteered using the bars! The weight shift has caused the countersteer!

 

However, the big question about body steering; is it efficient? If that rider took his machine to some left/right transitions at speed I wouldn't like to watch the outcome.

 

So here's the question, would you prefer to use a shift of some of your body weight to the outside of a motorcycle in order to get a bit of countersteering out of it, or would you prefer an accurate, efficient, stable, powerful way of steering your motorcycle using an exact amount of pressure that you choose onto the bars?

 

P.s. Crash you're on the right track - the banking would assist in the weight shifting.

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whether we push on the handlebars or not, the bike will still countersteer, however the result will not be that effective. we can steer a bicycle without any inputs to the handlebar as well. pushing and pulling makes it precise, easy and smooth. Solely relying on body steering and trying hard not to countersteer caused me to run wide and crash on the track.

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Your friends who don't countersteer actually do. They just don't know it. [/size][/font][/color]

 

Thats spooky stuff, that doing things but you dont know it, got that little tune from the twilight zone stuck in my head now!

Really though, I remember speaking to a guy and he told me there's 2 types of counter steering, he called it passive counter steering and active counter steering. Passive being the people that dont know there doing it and active being well us really or the people who use it to set there bikes direction intentionally.

As for that little no hands video, things like that dont impress me one bit, we all know it can be done and as mentioned earlier is easily do able on a bicycle, if the guy could direct the bike with precision then It be different!

 

Bobby

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Your friends who don't countersteer actually do. They just don't know it. [/size][/font][/color]

 

Thats spooky stuff, that doing things but you dont know it, got that little tune from the twilight zone stuck in my head now!

Really though, I remember speaking to a guy and he told me there's 2 types of counter steering, he called it passive counter steering and active counter steering. Passive being the people that dont know there doing it and active being well us really or the people who use it to set there bikes direction intentionally.

As for that little no hands video, things like that dont impress me one bit, we all know it can be done and as mentioned earlier is easily do able on a bicycle, if the guy could direct the bike with precision then It be different!

 

Bobby

Agree with you. The no-hands-video-steering is not the "precise efficient steering" as defined by Keith.

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I shot my first onboard video today with my new GoPro. It took in more than I expected, so I will need to experiement with different camera angles. However, what really surprised me was that there is virtually no evidence of countersteering, but lots of evidence of massiv steering into the corners blink.gif

 

The road is littered with 20-30 mph hairpins (when I run out of cornering clearance). Since I carried my son on the pillion, I tried to be fairly smooth when turning in, but I was/am still stunned about the lack of visible countersteering.

 

I'm off for a 3 week vacation, but I'm going to post the video on youtube when I'm back.

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I shot my first onboard video today with my new GoPro. It took in more than I expected, so I will need to experiement with different camera angles. However, what really surprised me was that there is virtually no evidence of countersteering, but lots of evidence of massiv steering into the corners blink.gif

 

The road is littered with 20-30 mph hairpins (when I run out of cornering clearance). Since I carried my son on the pillion, I tried to be fairly smooth when turning in, but I was/am still stunned about the lack of visible countersteering.

The handlebars don't move more than perhaps +/- 10mm, when countersteering. If you have The Twist-II DVD, there is a scene where they've put a gauge on the tank so demonstrate that you're actually countersteering, but it also shows just how little the handlebars actually move. But it still can take a massive force to move, when at higher speeds.

 

Kai

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Eirik,

 

About your video--you have a good eye and a wonderful training tool (and memory maker) with that camera. I want one. Like you, I notice a lot of good old fashioned steering in my riding too. For example--I inch down my steep gravel driveway, get on the asphalt and steer hard left. When I look at my bars, I am By Golly steering left and the bar is turned a LOT. But what I've also noticed is that this is when I'm Already leaned over. I tend to look at my bars mid-turn, once I've done my turn-in and feel like I have enough spare attention to glance down at my handlebars. At that time, I see steering and not counter steering.

 

However, when I'm turning in, most of my visual attention is on my turning point, the apex or the exit (not my handlebars). I FEEL the counter steering and it is very quick and subtle. Look at your video again and notice if you can see a quick little jerk in the opposite direction, just before, or right as, the bike starts to lean over. It looks almost like you hit a bump and the handlebars turned a bit, except that while you're counter steering, the bike leans over. You can really see it on the "Twist II" video because of the giant cardboard arrow, but even there, it is very quick and only happens Right at the Beginning of the Turn. You only need to get the bike kicked over a bit, then gravity starts to take over and do your job for you.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Perhaps a bit pathetic to reply to my own post unsure.gif but a racer on another forum said that in his experience, there are two reasons to turn into a corner; front wheel sliding (not for me, thank you) or too much lean is used for the speed. Does this make sense?

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Erik, it is really quite simple. You counter steer to initiate the turn and once the bike leans into the corner the bars will automatically turn in.

If you press on the inside bar while leaned over the bike will lean over more. If you press on the outside bar the bike will stand up.

 

 

When a bike leans into a corner the bars will automatically turn in. This is not steering, it's just the bike balancing itself. This is what your video shows, nothing more.

 

 

Steering is when the rider performs some action to change the lean angle of the bike to get it to change direction.

 

You don't steer a bike into a corner, you counter steer it. Once you have counter steered the bike and it leans over the bars will turn into the corner without the rider doing a thing, this is not steering.

 

If you want to adjust your line mid corner you do so by counter steering.

 

As for your racer friend's advice it is fairly sound, if the front slides you can turn the bars in to recover and if you have to much lean angle for your speed turning the bars into the corner (pushing forward on the outside bar) will stand the bike up.

 

 

 

 

If you don't believe that this is how it works please try it for yourself.

 

 

Ride in a straight line at any speed over let's say 15mph, push forward on the left bar and notice what happens. Report back if you like.

 

Ride through a sweeping corner at any speed over 15mph, push forward on the outside bar and notice what happens. Report back if you like.

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