SPIDEY Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Eirik, which question would you like a definite answer to?? ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The original: Which one do you rank top priority? I put it in plural because there have been many questions asked or questions answered with new questions instead of delivering a firm and clear answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mika Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The two-step followed by the wide view. Not being able to find my way thru a corner is the quickest way to trigger my Survival Reactions and that is not a good position to be in when riding a bike. Utilizing the two-step along with the wide view makes it all so much easier to corner a bike in any circumstance I have experienced. Mika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogogusgus Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 eirik 42 justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 eirik 42 justin This is pretty funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The "good" thing about these questions raised is that at best the coach will come back with another question We never seem to obtain a definite answer - or could this be the exception? Please The original question was "Which one [skill] do you rank top priority?". There's really no way a coach could answer that for you, Cobie asked for your opinion. If it was the same for everyone, it wouldn't be a very interesting dicussion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogogusgus Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 HF Ah, one does what one can, Sensei-- during one's brief sojourn within this earthly dogpark JG (who is John Galt?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 The "good" thing about these questions raised is that at best the coach will come back with another question We never seem to obtain a definite answer - or could this be the exception? Please Eirik, As I see it, this comes from a very central point of how the school is running: the classroom instructor and the on-track coaches are asking you these questions using the Socratic discussion style to make the student think the matters through and arrive at the right answers for him/herself. There's a saying: Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime My impression is that the school is trying to learn the students to fish. And I really really really like that idea Kai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 OK. Let me put it another way: I'd like the coach(es) to say: I think it is like this because.... instead of: What do you think of this.... That's because I learn a heck of a lot more that way. It doesn't prevent me from thinking for myself or questioning what's said, but it gives me something firm to base an opinion on. I have never liked nor have I found much benefit it being asked questions until I have a proper platform to start from. If a person knows 10 times more than me about any given topic and ask me questions instead of lecturing me, I feel like my time is wasted. I could get to 70% of this person's knowledge quickly if he or she would just share with me and open for me to ask questions as we go - and THEN the lecturer could begin challenging ME with questions to ensure I'm not simply a passive part. However, I fully accept that people differ. Greatly, at times. So what works for me doesn't have to work for others - and vice verse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 OK. Let me put it another way: I'd like the coach(es) to say: I think it is like this because.... instead of: What do you think of this.... That's because I learn a heck of a lot more that way. It doesn't prevent me from thinking for myself or questioning what's said, but it gives me something firm to base an opinion on. I have never liked nor have I found much benefit it being asked questions until I have a proper platform to start from. If a person knows 10 times more than me about any given topic and ask me questions instead of lecturing me, I feel like my time is wasted. I could get to 70% of this person's knowledge quickly if he or she would just share with me and open for me to ask questions as we go - and THEN the lecturer could begin challenging ME with questions to ensure I'm not simply a passive part. However, I fully accept that people differ. Greatly, at times. So what works for me doesn't have to work for others - and vice verse. The format that you have observed is from the school, and what precedes each session with a student is a full and complete lecture on the subject. CF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Crash, Lots of time spent on the sequence of training at the school. One thing to consider, if one doesn't first know how to get the bike to handle stabily and predictably, even the best visual skills with end up with a potentially unstable machine underneath one. It's not that your point isn't valid, in a way the visual skills are more important. But without solid mechanics in place first.... Great participation all, nice to see this! Best, Cobie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukem Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 2-step /3-step every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slobdog Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 For me the top skill will keep changing as I develop. For all my 3 crashes (all after evel 1) I'd say that correct throttle control (rule number 1) would have been the solution to at least 2. First 2 were front end losses, first was caused by opening the throttle (albeit smoothly) before fully completing turning. The second crash was a chicane and knee to knee would have certainly helped, but throttling whilst flicking right to left caused a lack of weight on the front and to me was the main culprit. By my 3rd crash, I had got my turn in whilst off throttle sorted, started going generally faster and lost the rear whilst rolling on. You could say TC was the issue, too much before picking up the bike....but it was really a lack of RP's as I didn't have a set place / order to commence pick up (drill) and I was a bit lost. So right now RP's are the top thing that I need to focus on, but only because it will help me to finally accomplish correct TC. So, in a round about way I'm saying TC has been the most important to date, but with time it seems to change, as your success in one drill highlights a weakness in another...which then becomes important to you at that particular moment in your development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradvanhorn Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 I vote "vision". I can't get really good results from any of the other skills (throttle control, quick turn, relax, etc.) unless I first know where I AM and where I want to GO. If I had to narrow it down to one particular visual drill, I'd have to say Wide View, for me. (Having said that, I do know that I wouldn't have gotten much benefit from learning Wide View without learning basic throttle control and quick turn first, to get me in control of the bike, so those need to come first - maybe that makes them more important...?) Thankfully Hotfoot posted almost exactly what I was thinking As I discovered at Streets of Willow in Oct, once my visual started working better, everything else worked better. I pretty much spent two days refining my 2-step/3-step/wide-view, and it made a world of difference. I got stuffed a couple different times at Turn 4 but my improved wide-view already showed me my avoidance options and I barely even blinked my eyes at the less than courteous passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyrod Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Tricky one! I like Bones' answer on page 1: "Product". Bit of a cheat as it's an umbrella. Umm... I've done L1 and L2, and I think the thing that's made the most difference is Quick Turns. I shoudl have understood it before but I didn't, but in doing so it's also allowed me to trust the bike more and fight with it less, which keeps it more stable. It's helped my rubbish BP a bit and didn't need me to change my style too much (this is a bonus I guess). To be honest they're all good lessons, so tough to pick just one. Crash, I get you, but in this case you have to trust the CSS guys that you're going to taught to walk before you can run. The worst that can happen is that you spend the cash and are told you're already a great rider, then go on to Level 2. Re. vanishing points/RPs etc. I think this goes back to your other thread about cornering on the road vs. the track, another kettle of fish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventodue Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 "Top skill"? (With apologies for being dull ...) 1. Throttle control. 2. Vision. Not sure I'll ever really get No.1 nailed. And I've still got a long way to go with No. 2 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted December 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 Justin, sorry, you lost me mate...maybe I didn't go back far enough in the thread... There have been a ton of interesting replies, man this interaction is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted December 10, 2011 Report Share Posted December 10, 2011 I think for street riding vision is more important than throttle control but for racing throttle control is more important. Throttle control footnote: I was at Barber for a track day a few weeks ago. A friend of mine wanted me to ride his bike a few laps. We had a friendly wager on what my lap times would be on his R6 vs my 1000RR. The first thing I noticed was a Throttle Issue. I came in after a red flag dampened my first session on the bike and asked if he noticed anything about his throttle. He said no. He was running a Bazazz Control system. We looked at the software and found that he was running 59% throttle position to full throttle. We calibrated the TPS and took about 3mm of slack out of his throttle linkage. The reason I say this is because it represents how in tune you can get with the feel of the throttle and how important it is to have good throttle control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 I think for street riding vision is more important than throttle control but for racing throttle control is more important. Throttle control footnote: I was at Barber for a track day a few weeks ago. A friend of mine wanted me to ride his bike a few laps. We had a friendly wager on what my lap times would be on his R6 vs my 1000RR. The first thing I noticed was a Throttle Issue. I came in after a red flag dampened my first session on the bike and asked if he noticed anything about his throttle. He said no. He was running a Bazazz Control system. We looked at the software and found that he was running 59% throttle position to full throttle. We calibrated the TPS and took about 3mm of slack out of his throttle linkage. The reason I say this is because it represents how in tune you can get with the feel of the throttle and how important it is to have good throttle control. So, how did the friendly wager go!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryM Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I'd go with Vision too, once you can master the survival reactions that get triggered when you think you're in too hot, and have the self discipline to look where you want to be going, 99% of the time you'll do just fine. Speed comes naturally from that base. I'm with you bud And Throttle control next Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerThat Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Quick turn totally changed my riding. I used to do that classic street rider ease-into-the-corner thing. With quick turn I realized I could enter the corner SOOOO much faster, it changed everything. I used to think I had to keep the throttle on a little entering a turn - I think people call that "maintenance throttle". Once I got quickturn (thank you Stuman, my level 1 coach), I realized the only reason I needed maintenance throttle is because I was going so SLOW before! I never would have gotten quick turn from the book - trusting my coach and following him through the corner at the school is what made the light bulb come on for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted December 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 If memory serves correctly, Keith said Wayne Rainey worked on that skill as his primary one for a year. CF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mika Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Quick turn totally changed my riding. I used to do that classic street rider ease-into-the-corner thing. With quick turn I realized I could enter the corner SOOOO much faster, it changed everything. I used to think I had to keep the throttle on a little entering a turn - I think people call that "maintenance throttle". Once I got quickturn (thank you Stuman, my level 1 coach), I realized the only reason I needed maintenance throttle is because I was going so SLOW before! I never would have gotten quick turn from the book - trusting my coach and following him through the corner at the school is what made the light bulb come on for me. ...this is the hardest skill to master in my opinion. It also pays out big time when you can get it right. Mika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 this is a very composite answer from me imho but to sum up, everything ?its not like vision is gonna help when you need more brakes or throttle control and vice versa? my personal fav is quick turn + throttle control , makes my bike go on controlled skid/grip zones at turns the only way for a <10 HP bike to do mini power slides is on a low friction coefficient patch on the road (drain covers, white lines) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted December 15, 2011 Report Share Posted December 15, 2011 But how do you know when to quick turn and when to get on the throttle if you do not know exactly where you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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