acebobby

I was thinking this too. It seems many/most of the responses including my own could be summed up as "whatever I'm working on at the time." And it seemed to me that Cobie's question to open this thread was intentionally vague. I mean what's top priority for who? For an expert racer? For a beginner? For a street rider, for a track rider? And are we talking about es turns, or wide sweeping turns, or reducing radius turns, or that really sharp turn at the end of the straight? For sure quick turning seems to me to be practically THE thing that determines how fast you can get through a set of eses. But then coming out of an increasing radius turn it's all about throttle control. A rider hopping on a bike for the very first time in his/her life is probably thinking mostly about how to modulate the clutch and shift gears and remember which levers do what. And in my opinion the very next thing they need to think about is visual skills and avoiding target fixation. And next would that magical stabilizing affect of the throttle. I remember on my first tract day (which was taking level 1 with the school), I was dragging pegs, so at that point my biggest priority became body position, and I had to think a lot about the transitions and how I was holding onto the bike. Now 50-some track days later body position is not something I think about much cos I think it's pretty good and I seem to do it naturally. Then I realized more recently (thanks to some coach input) that I wasn't always looking as far ahead as I could and it was slowing me down, so now visual skills become the thing I have to concentrate on doing differently than I'm used to. I would also like to add that learning to overcome panic reactions is very helpful. The skill of focusing on your task in the midst of a very intense activity is a challenge that I think really keeps me interested in this sport. The faster you go the more intense it gets and yet the more important it is to focus and stay smooth. You find yourself doing things things that laymen think are crazy and you never thought you'd be doing - 160 mph around the kink, hard braking, quick turning, and amongst all that physical effort and speed and subtle sliding and twitching, you know as long as you keep the focus it will all work out. What you must remember is that the question is Whats Top Priority, and not where do you spend your attention. It is a good question and has brought forward alot of interesting opinions I myself believe that when Keith sat down and worked out the levels he put them into an order of importance and prioritised the learning procedure from level 1 onwards, So even though I dont spend much attention on it I still have to go with the first lesson throttle control! The funny thing about throttle control is get it wrong at road speeds and it can be quite forgiving, but once you take up track riding good throttle control combined with the ability to overcome SR's will keep your bike stable and if you get it wrong wont be so forgiving at the higher speeds! Once you have good TC all the other skills are added to this and you will improve, but from a novice trackday guy to the best in the world in WSBK and Moto GP bad throttle control will make it all go very wrong in an instant, it is the foundation skill that only if practiced correctly allows you to work on other techniques such as vision and body position!

Ace--why would they be seperate and/or exclusive? CF Hi Cobie Ok some time ago Keith responded to a question stating that you only had to tighten up on the outside leg for the duration of the time it takes to steer the bike then you can relax again, makes perfect sense! I however am unable to relax my leg once at lean angle as my leg is like a coiled spring wedged between my footpeg and tank, I am worried that if I relaxed the tension in my leg I would lose my lock onto the bike and unpset the stability mid turn. does this make sense? Got it. One would have to use some effort to stay locked on, that's for sure. Would it be a little more (or a fair amount more) during the action of steering, especially trying to steer quickly, going fast? CF I would say that the pressure remains the same from turn in throughout the turn, I do feel securely locked onto my bike though which is a great feeling, should I be applying even more pressure when I steer or should I maybe experiment with less energetic ways of locking on to the bike?

Glad you finally got signed up hub, look forward to hearing your perspective of things, you will have a blast!

Ace--yeah, fun track, the level 2-3 stuff should work well there. We ran the short course when we were there last, are you using that, or the full course? CF We were using the full circuit Cobie, It has a bit of everything on it that track and its narrow too so you can really benefit from the level 2 drills!

Ace--why would they be seperate and/or exclusive? CF Hi Cobie Ok some time ago Keith responded to a question stating that you only had to tighten up on the outside leg for the duration of the time it takes to steer the bike then you can relax again, makes perfect sense! I however am unable to relax my leg once at lean angle as my leg is like a coiled spring wedged between my footpeg and tank, I am worried that if I relaxed the tension in my leg I would lose my lock onto the bike and unpset the stability mid turn. does this make sense?

I have never really been a big fan of downhill turns but last week after I had done my L2 and 3 I did a track evening at cadwell park, that was the first time I have ever riden that track and wow, its like a roller coaster, what you see on the tv does not do the elevation changes there any justice! There is a section on that track just after the goose neck which is a steep downhill section and at the bottom of the hill a 90 degree left hander, the first time I saw that on my sighting lap I was like, oh no, but then I was practicing what I had learned the 2 previous days and I and my bike felt good round there! I cant wait to get back to cadwell again!

Hi dbtriple, Thats a good question and should make an interesting discussion! statistically speaking most accidents on the road happen quite close to home or in other words a road familiar to the rider! everyone does it, their favourite stretch of road, they know the layout of the turns precisely, they go into blind turns that they know alot faster than if it was a road they never knew, doing this most of the time works out fine! sometimes things can happen in these situations that can ruin your day, e.g. what if your carrying a fair amount of lean angle into one of your favourite road corners and then you see a pile of gravel right on your line, or maybe some roadkill lying on your line, or a common one where I come from a tourist stopped mid corner admiring the views! What do your SRs cause you to do in these situations? To avoid any issues on the road you really have to ride within your vision, you can however increase the amount of vision you have by experimenting with your road position, i.e enter a turn a little bit wider and later than you normally would will increase what you can see before you commit to your desired lean angle!

when will it be available over here in the UK?

When I did the school earlier this week I learned loads of techniques, but this one in particular has been playing on my mind. The thing is I understand the exact principle Andy Ibbott was showing us in the class room when pushing the wall with one hand and putting some tension in the opposite leg, demonstrating how much more power the push has when you do this! The problem I am having is separating this technique from locking in to the tank! When I lock into the tank I tend to push of the peg and drive my knee into the stomp grip, basically getting my leg wedged between the peg and the tank, by doing this I believe that creates alot of tension through my leg just as I turn in. Is it correct to assume that both these techniques go hand in hand or am I missing something?

Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it!

Now that you've been to the class, was there anything in particular you learned that addressed the original question about how to find or sense the traction limits? Steve, Bobby has been with us this week, undertaking levels 2 and 3 and the weather conditions were most questionable at times and the track we used (rockingham), is slippery as ice in certain turns so no doubt he'll have comments to make on sliding a little after that. Bobby? Bullet Got home safely late last night, we decided to go long way home and do a track evening at cadwell to practice what we had learned! As Bullet said the weather was indeed questionable, if it was not the school but a normal track day I think I would have sat some of the sessions out but it was school and my instructor Chris (Butch) had every intention that I was going to go home a much better rider than I was when I arrived! On the first day that was when my sessions got the worst of the weather and that kind of made me a bit tense on the bike, a bit slow with my steering, and a bit hesitant with my throttle control! Butch immediately noticed this and we were in the pits and back to level 1 basics, the weather was causing the SR's that dont normally occur too much in the dry! Then on my second session in heavy rain on the second lap a guy high sided on the notoriously slippery turn 6 right in front of me, (we had been warned about this turn only 5 minutes earlier)! Seeing that messed with my head a bit and again made it hard to relax! My next session I decided to just forget about speed and work on the drills that Andy Ibbott had been teaching us in class and also focus on being relaxed, at this point things started to feel alot better, I was finding reference points in places I never even thought of looking, I was scanning the track looking for skid marks and whatever I could find and Butch kept signalling to me to lift my head, when I did lift my head thats when I found big RP's, I wont go too much into this but an example of something I found was a massive all seated grandstand which its edge conveniently made a good direction to look when exiting turn 6! I found it a bit funny that I'm riding around and dont even notice a huge grandstand, but now my eyes are open I find loads of things to look at and my vision is flowing, I always have somewhere to look and each RP is a signal that its time to look for the next one! Every session I am feeling a bit better and am finding more things out there, but one of the most effective drills I found was riding the track on 3 different lines, the space this created for me was amazing, just realising how much unused area of track I had if I needed was amazing, then finally I got to work on the pick up drill which is the key to recovering slides! The next day I did level 3 and got Butch as my instructor again which I was happy with but he was still not happy with my steering and throttle control, and he decided to put me on the off track steering drill which was cool because I missed it last year due to the weather! Today our group got lucky with the weather and the sun came out and dried everything out about 10 minutes before each session so the last session of the day was our only wet session! While working on all the body position drills that day Butch was very strictly pushing for improvement in my steering and throttle control, and throughout the day I could feel masive improvements, I felt so much more comfortable on my bike! It wasn't until that last session everything fell together, it was wet, I was relaxed, I had all the RP's I needed, I was comfortably locked into my bike then when Butch came past and told me to follow him thats exactly what I did, It didn't seem too fast for me and in the pits he told me he was surprised when he looked over his shoulder and I was right there! When I went back out for the last 10 minutes of my session I just kept doing everything like I had been and tried to go a little faster, was full of confidence and I was riding round watching the instructors sliding their R1's everywhere! I never got my bike sliding but I did learn that when all the techniques are practised correctly you can go fast in terrible conditions without upsetting the bike! When I got my final chat with Butch he told me that he thought I didn't really realise just how much I had improved! I think that he has transformed my riding by focusing on all the areas that needed sorting out and by eventually getting me to relax going faster doesn't seem so hard now! I apologise for going a bit off topic here but I kind of think that if you practice all the techniques properly getting near the limits of traction wont really be that big a deal! Thanks Bullet for being able to find time throughout your busy day for a chat a few times and thanks to Andy Ibbott and Butch and the whole CSS UK team for 2 great days and making me better on my bike! Cheers Bobby

See you there Acebobby. Here is hoping its a little cooler than it has been the last couple of days at Silverstone. Bullet Its a funny old thing the weather, we moan when its cold and wet (which is most of the time) then we get a heatwave hitting the UK and we want it a bit cooler lol, I will be happy if its dry, but then again if its wet I'l still have a blast!

Feeling stable body position Tipping in Maintenance throttle reference points SPEED ... I think the most important is skill is stability. Once you feel stable; body postion, tipping in, looking through turn etc all come much easier. I've only been to level 1, so my list is probably very elementary. Hi dmj120 What would you do with the bike to get that feeling of stability?

Hi Bullet That is an excellent description of what we are looking for regarding using traction, thanks for that! Reading Stevo's posts I would say that I am at a similar level to him, I have also experienced a few little rear wheel slips and slides on the street but that is down to conditions rather than anything I have done, But whenever Its happened I have never really felt any warning signals from the bike, just got traction then not got traction, everything then feels like its in slow motion, I continue to obey throttle control rule #1 and it sorts itself out, thats a good feeling! I also ride a 600 and from reading some other posts it seems that if my technique is good and its dry out there traction isn't going to be an issue on the exit of a turn anyway, knowing this lets me know that I could be going alot faster than I am currently whenever on track! I will be at Rockingham next week for both days L2 and 3 and am looking forward to learning as much as I can from you guys over the course of the 2 days! Cheers Bobby

I would have to say throttle control here, that is the one thing that can make the difference between being in control or not of your bike! I dont think its a coincidence that this is the very first thing you learn at the CSS on your first day nor that it is covered so intensely at the beginning of TOTW 2! Without good throttle control the rest of the techniques would not be possible, it is the one aspect of cornering that effects everything throughout the turn!

I believe the reason for the 40 front, 60 rear is to achieve the best contact patch for both tyres and that it would be done by opening the throttle! It's once you have initially cracked open the throttle, the book states that once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn! So while cracking open the throttle sets the tyres contact patches how do you know how hard or not you can roll on the throttle? And while rolling on throughout the turn are you not moving more weight to the rear effectively unloading the front? Hey bobby, If you look at TW2 page 7, section on "light touch", it describes the definition of how much and what happens if you put on too much too soon. Have a read, see if that covers it of for you mate. Bullet Got it, cheers! Its like everyone says, it doesn't matter how many times you read the books you always pick up on something else! I think I might be one of the people making the error of being to greedy with the throttle, it hasn't caused me any real issues yet fortunately but I will be working on correcting this! Thanks Bullet!

I believe the reason for the 40 front, 60 rear is to achieve the best contact patch for both tyres and that it would be done by opening the throttle! It's once you have initially cracked open the throttle, the book states that once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn! So while cracking open the throttle sets the tyres contact patches how do you know how hard or not you can roll on the throttle? And while rolling on throughout the turn are you not moving more weight to the rear effectively unloading the front?

You will also read in twist 2, crack the throttle and begin the roll on as soon as possible! My bike is also my transport but you have to get the bike stable and to achieve that you must crack open the throttle, I have worked hard on this and its an SR definitely worth getting over! Check the Moto GP guys in qualifying to see their true riding style!

Yeah, you could say that, though so far this year has been a hell of a contrast. So unpredicatble the UK weather it seems. Yeah, gutted about your weather predicament, my heart bleeds for you. Must be a real ain having to clean all those flies of the front everyday, whereas at least ours are occasionally cleaned by mother nature! Bullet this years weather certainly has been different than the past, yesterday I did a track day at knockhill and it was 23 degrees and sunshine, they joke that knockhill has a micro climate but usually that means a big black cloud right above the track hitting it with rain while its sunny everywhere else!

It's nice to know that even a coach has such a conservative approach towards a new track. Do you do this the day before the students arrive? Thanks, Andy No, typically it's on a school day, I'll start to do this on the sighting laps whilst the students are doing there own. Once the introductions are done for my first round of students, I almost always have 2-3 laps of a track anyway (regardless of whether I've been before), to get myself re-acuqainted with the bike, the track, the surface, just to get myself warmed up anyway. As this session has the student practising with no brakes, I do the same, and it helps me get my eye in so to speak, as it could have been many weeks since I last rode a bike. Is all simple stuff eh? Bullet This is interesting stuff, even though I found the benefits of the no brakes drill at the school, its not really something I have done on a trackday, got a trackday booked for tomorrow so will begin the day with no brakes and see how I progress! As always I have a few level 1 drills in mind that I want to work on in preparation for my levels 2 and 3 in 2 weeks time!

I must have missed this post as searching out RP's is something I am always working on, we had an in depth thread discussing this subject not so long ago that had some really good and helpful input from alot of forum members, worth doing a search! The reason I'm replying is about what you say about having to get your speed up to avoid interfering with other riders, forget that and learn the track! I dont know trackday rules in the US but here in the UK the slower rider has priority, meaning its up to the faster guy to pass safely! Unless your making any erratic mid corner direction changes the faster riders wont have an issue passing you!

If you go to the top of the page, click on UK School Homepage! At the bottom right there is a link to rossi's top 10 riding tips video, on there one of his tips is standing starts on an R6, that may help you! I posted a link to the video on here before but cant find it now!

Oh I am sure you will!!!! hahahaha JasonK. You will enjoy mate, I was hooked on the twist books before my level 1, pretty much using twist 2 as a drill manual (still do) but nothing could have prepared me for the lessons learned at the school, just dont go wishing our summer away till september!

I think that a percentage of ability is just a number specific to an individual, take a look at WSBK or Moto GP, when they do their warm up lap (except lorenzo) what percentage of their ability are they using to keep the tyres hot, going knee to knee, basically just taking it easy, waving to the crowd yet still lapping faster than the fast group at a trackday! Or how does your bike feel on your first ride out after winter compared to near the end of the bike season, is 70% of your ability the same for both? no way! When I did my level 1 last year Andy Ibbott told me to ride at a pace that I could comfortably practice my drills, I dont know if I was riding at 70-80 or 90% of my ability but what I do know is that by the end of the day I was faster at my comfortable pace than what I would have been in the first session at 100%! I realised a few weeks later that what I had actually learned was to manage my $10 of attention more efficiently, I did a trackday at donington earlier this year on a hired R6, so I was on a bike I never knew, on a track I had never riden! The first 2 sessions I never passed anyone and this was bothering me so I tried to go faster (riding at 100%) but still wasn't catching the other riders! By session 3 I decided to forget it and work on my level 1 drills which was the reason for hiring the bike and track time anyway, In that session I began catching and passing the other riders, I couldn't believe this, I felt like I was riding slower, had more in reserve yet I was lapping much faster than before and felt more comfortable on the bike! So I dont know what 70% is but I know that for me riding at a pace that I can plan things out is faster and safer than riding on the ragged edge!

I'm booked for Rockingham on the 6th and 7th of July for levels 2 and 3, as far as I can see they will still be using the training bikes there! I knew they never used them at brands due to lack of space, never knew they didn't run them at Silverstone though! Hopefully I can get on the lean bike on my level 2 as its one of the machines I am really looking forward to getting a shot of, but the training bikes are weather dependant after all so if thats the main reason for someone to go to school then it may be better to do a 2 day camp in spain or portugal! Hi bullet, good to see a UK coach up on this forum!