Jaybird180

Ahem, excuse me, but I see nothing wrong with this technique?

That would get cool to see just for a lap But I doubt I'd do it either. CF Okay, okay, Fine.... I'll volunteer.

Was this during the race or during qualifying. If it was during the race, I could forsee them using the early turn-in for defense. Those WSB boys take every opportunity to pass.

Sorry about your unfortunate fall.

TP varies with speed. A slower rider can turn closer to the inside of the corner.

I agree with your instructor...it's the concept of getting the bike upright as soon so you can so you can add additional load (read: acceleration) onto the "fat part" of the tire. Kevin No sarcasm. Keith's article on Bands of Traction, paragraph 7. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877

Nevermind that there's more contact patch on the side of the tire, Jody.

Thought provoking question

IIRC carbon pads need to be HOT to work well. They stop worth ###### when cold. Same with ceramic.

Does 70% mean that you're not alarming SRs? I'm not sure as I would think SRs diminish with improving skill and become less reliable.

You can get "Mr. Recovery" Colin Edwards to show us how to do that

Nowhere near the same. It is one of the reasons I don't want to street ride anymore; practicing bad habits.

You have more leverage for counter-steering this way. Head down was tough for me because my bike has me sit more upright than the school's ZX6R I was on. It took me 1-1/2 day to accept the new position. The more I fought the bike, the more tired I became, even to the point of back pain. The new position forced me to Quick Turn and to consciously STEER the motorcycle. And whaddya know...it works! (but don't tell Cobie) (smile)

This wouldn't be as much fun without the "why".

Ever think of visiting the local drag night?

Andy, Your posts are well written and exciting and I'm going to sit back and watch and learn as this thread evolves. However I would like to offer a little story and perhaps add another consideration to your 70% question. About 2 years ago, I went out for a ride. Typical day, nice weather, unlimited visibility, everything was perfect. I was well rested....nothing was amiss. Some days I notice that for some reason, my bike feels more an extension of me than others. She turns, steers, brakes and just feels...silky smooth. This was such a day. This particular day I had nowhere to be and decided to take it easy and just let things flow. I took a course that I don't normally take into the city (which I usually avoid anyhow), but somehow it just felt right, and I went in that direction. I made a right turn onto the on-ramp for US-50W and it was just perfect. It's a downhill long sweeping turn with all the visibility you could ever want. I rolled on the throttle ever so gently and felt stability like I'd never felt before. I got straightened up on 50 and was well inside my comfort zone and personal performance limits. I was in the Gardens of Bliss. About 2 minutes later my rear-view mirror picks up the distinct red/blue flashes of the man of law, Maryland State Police. I knew that there was nothing amiss so I continued on my course as he closed distance. When it became clear that he was interested in me, I signaled with my hand and pulled to the side of the highway. Standard conversation ensues, 'do you know why I pulled you over...'. I answered "no", having not a clue. His response: 'I got you on radar doing 100MPH entering the on-ramp!' (That section of road is 50MPH speed limit) I was speechless. I had no idea. I wasn't being aggressive or even trying to go fast, but I can usually tell when I've hit the ton! On top of that 100MPH on the on-ramp!!! I couldn't believe it. He didn't give me a ticket (thankfully), but it could have went another way. He also told me that he was hoping that I'd attempt escape. He was looking for a chase. I rode away, happy I didn't get a ticket, puzzled that I was doing 100 without knowing, and yet proud that my cornerspeed was so high and yet never sent an SR alarm. I hope that you get my point...

Sport Rider did a piece on that very topic awhile back. Perhaps a search will yield results. Sorry, I can't do it right now. It's late here on the east coast and I've gotta get to bed. Hopefully the morrow will yield some results.

I guess asking someone about their favorite tires is like asking what's the best oil.

Jaybird, if you want my Power Ones, come and get them, they're all yours. I rode on them at CA Speedway, Laguna Seca, and Streets, and found them to be NON confidence inspiring at all three tracks. On the bright side, they do have a lot of tread left in the center. ha ha ha Good Comeback.

FossilFuel!!! I am SO GLAD you posted this, I had trouble with these tires too. I was running Michelin PowerRace tires and loved them. They have been replaced with the Power Ones. So my tire vendor sold me those, said they would feel the same. I HATED them. I had head shake multiple places on the track (on AND off the gas!), which I have never experienced before, and repeatedly slipped both front and rear tires - even getting substantial slips on the rear tire on upshifts, with the bike completely upright. My confidence went WAY down, and after three sessions I went back and asked him to change the tires. He replaced them with the 'commercially available' version, which were a LOT better - they were less stiff, had a less radical profile, and warmed up quickly. So I started to ride better, and have a made a real effort to like these - but then I did a school day on Dunlops, had a blast - and when I got back on my own bike (also a ZX6R), the Power Ones felt awful in comparison. So, I'm done with them, they're going in the trash. My tire vendor said that since I wasn't using warmers and it was a cool day (60s) that I never warmed up the tires, and so they were stiff and slick. I noticed that the race version of the front tire was shorter in height than my Power Race tire, so my front end was lower and less stable. Then when I changed to the 'commercial' tire, it was HIGHER than my previous tire, had to change my setup again. So I don't know which of these issues you ran into, whether the tire was too stiff, too low-profile, didn't warm up, didn't give you enough feedback, or just plain didn't have enough grip, but I can tell you from direct experience that I can't ride for s__t on the Power Ones, I think it is totally possible that your crash was related to the change in tires, they do feel radically different to me. And I LOVED the Power Race and the Pilot Powers. So... which Dunlop were you using? I guess I'm changing brands! So sorry to hear about your crash, I hope you are OK. And that your bike is recoverable. You can make a non-tax deductible tire donation to the Jaybird Motorcycle Foundation

Fossil, Sorry about your getoff. The worse part is that in your mind the only change is the tires, so I'm sure that you're blaming them. And for all we know if could be a problem tire. Or could be a problem tire for YOUR SETUP. Tires and bikes are developed together. Engineers compute this stuff and spit out some numbers and blah, blah, blah. Then the suspension geometry, springs and damping setting needs to be tweaked. You went from a round profile to a V profile tire. At a minimum you should measure the tire's circumference (even when using same brand and type tires) and make small changes to reset your geometry to your known baseline. I'm not sure if you made a typo in your writeup but you interchanged 31psi cold with 31psi hot. There's also a mention of 36psi. If you set your tire at 36cold, I'd imagine that's too high. Even at my slow speeds (LOL) I run 31psi cold front on my Pilot Powers for track, and they stick like glue. But as Kevin says, YRMV :-)

Yes, that's the way I remember it too, that we were of the minority opinion. I haven't totally abandoned it, but as a CSS student, the language doesn't work very well with the other drills they teach. One of my favorite is called "The Do Nothing Drill" (LOL). I think MT would get confusing on that one. You gotta choose your philosophy at some point. I figure I'd learn this way and maybe later after having a good foundation in CSS's methodology I'd take on other methods. I think your explanation of being in the low end of the powerband is spot on. I also use the 2 down, 3 up technique also. What's tough for me that I learned up at CSS is a quirk of my bike in the off/on throttle transition. I'm working on smoothing it out, as it's made me a bit gun shy there. I took a class a few years back with my trackday org and the coach taught me a technique of being on the gas on turn-in and it worked for me (but don't tell Cobie). I can see however how it could be a barrier as my speed improved. It did allow me to get consistent and get to a point where I was WOT just after apex. But I admit, it was a remedial technique. With that said, DO NOT roll the gas during your counter-steer (really easy to do). I learned in the steering drill that I have a tendency to roll the gas a bit and if I don't correct it, could potentially bite me on a fast switchback.

You have to do some forward thinking (perhaps the lap previous?) to find what gear you should be in for the turn that will yield the best drive off the corner. You should be in this gear when you are done with your braking and timed so that braking and shifting are done precisely at your selected Turn Point. IIRC, Kevin had done a detail of his progress in this area and described how he's now comfortable with his timing and matching his brake markers. SAY WHAT?!?!?!??? To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue. . Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's. I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question. I'd been stuck on the maintenance throttle thing for awhile also. I think it invites too much room for interpretation, especially in this context. When the clutch is pulled in, there is no power to the rear wheel (ie freewheeling). A free wheeling motorcycle is not stable as it is the transfer of power that creates the stability. Nick Ieanatch is a proponent of Maintenance Throttle (MT) and the concept is easily confused with saying neutral throttle. I'm not sure if CSS's methodology is compatible conceptually. CSS uses neutral throttle for decreasing radius or off-cambered turns. To make things even more confusing, IIRC Kevin Schwantz uses off-throttle concepts.

SAY WHAT?!?!?!??? To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue. .

A key for when one is riding an unfamiliar bike